Mad Paul Mason

[ska invita]

I mean, that's a big question, but looking back over the past 4-5 years or so, I feel like the US has gone from having an emboldened, confident far-right that was on the march both figuratively and literally, to having pushed the far-right back a great deal. Cos life is complicated, I feel like there's probably enough evidence that I could cherry-pick examples to prove that it was the black bloc wotdunnit, or Mason could pick enough examples to show that it was actually all down to Biden, but... actually, going back to what Mason said above, his words leading up to that were "Finally the left needs to get its head straight about the state. Either you want state power through elections, in which case you support the state having a legal monopoly of armed force (not guns bcos 2nd Am). Or not... Either you want the state to do its job, under the rule of law, with legislative oversight, or you don't."
I think it's fair to say, that if you were going off what Mason says, about how you need to build a popular front with centrists that supports the state, the one thing you would advise Americans not to do would be to launch a big uprising fighting the police and burning down police stations and setting cop cars on fire, one that mostly takes place in Democrat-run cities and so clashes with Democrat-run administrations, because that is not a good way to build alliances with centrists. And yet, I don't think the events of last summer seriously undermined the fight against fascism in the US, so I reckon Mason's theses are flawed.
So basically BLM would be my short answer to that - the anti-racist/anti-police movements that have mostly operated under that banner can't really be reduced to the labour movement or even the radical left alone, but they also really don't look like the classical kind of Popular Front that Mason advocates either.

Rushed post here as on lunch and phone, hopefully makes sense:...

I hear that but when it's come to the crunch it was the state + corporations (social media) that really shut down Trump after the Capitol riots, and that took the wind out of the grassroots (to some extent).

Historically fascists have come to power with the support of significant sections of the MC, corporations and sections of the state... Trump had ticks in a lot of those boxes tbh, but didn't tip the overall control of power within those sections. I guess what Paul Mason is appealing to is primarily aimed to people within those positions of power.

It's an interesting point about BLM ... Seems to me BLM on balance won the moral argument in the States, though it obviously polarises opinion. BLM raised awareness of fascism and authoritarianism within US institutions... I'm not sure it totally undermines Paul Masons argument, though potentially shutting down dissent is the slippery contradictory slope his argument is founded on, which is what I think you are saying.

 

[redsquirrel]

I think it's fair to say, that if you were going off what Mason says, about how you need to build a popular front with centrists that supports the state, the one thing you would advise Americans not to do would be to launch a big uprising fighting the police and burning down police stations and setting cop cars on fire, one that mostly takes place in Democrat-run cities and so clashes with Democrat-run administrations, because that is not a good way to build alliances with centrists. And yet, I don't think the events of last summer seriously undermined the fight against fascism in the US, so I reckon Mason's theses are flawed.
So basically BLM would be my short answer to that - the anti-racist/anti-police movements that have mostly operated under that banner can't really be reduced to the labour movement or even the radical left alone, but they also really don't look like the classical kind of Popular Front that Mason advocates either.

Mason's warblings about popular front's are delusional, I don't just mean they are silly, though they are, but they are a total fantasy.

There are arguments for and against popular frontism as a tactic (and where and when that tactic is appropriate) but they are largely academic because at the present there is no opportunity for a popular front in most countries, certainly not in the US, UK or most of the EU countries.

When the popular fronts were formed pre-war you had hard left (don't like that term but it will do here) groups that could command significant support. Sure they were often smaller than the liberal and centre-left parties but they still have a level of support (the French CP took 8% in 1932 which was a poor result, nowadays most hard left groups would kill their grandmothers for that type of polling) that meant that they could be players in any alliance with social democrats/liberals.

It is delusional to suggest that the equivalent is true today. Sure socialists in the US may vote for Biden, may work with Democrats, may even work for Democrats but it is ridiculous to suggest that this represents some sort of popular front, to do so is just cloud cuckoo. It might not be the choice I'd make but I can understand why individuals might work with the Democrats, but no one should pretend that doing so is some sort of popular front.

 

[hitmouse]

Rushed post here as on lunch and phone, hopefully makes sense:...

I hear that but when it's come to the crunch it was the state + corporations (social media) that really shut down Trump after the Capitol riots, and that took the wind out of the grassroots (to some extent).

Historically fascists have come to power with the support of significant sections of the MC, corporations and sections of the state... Trump had ticks in a lot of those boxes tbh, but didn't tip the overall control of power within those sections. I guess what Paul Mason is appealing to is primarily aimed to people within those positions of power.

It's an interesting point about BLM ... Seems to me BLM on balance won the moral argument in the States, though it obviously polarises opinion. BLM raised awareness of fascism and authoritarianism within US institutions... I'm not sure it totally undermines Paul Masons argument, though potentially shutting down dissent is the slippery contradictory slope his argument is founded on, which is what I think you are saying.

Yeah, again reality's always tricky and has lots of moving parts and stuff, but I suppose I'd ask how far the Capitol riots were an actual turning point/something that had the potential to go much further than it ended up going. Easy to say this in retrospect, I suppose, but looking back it looks like January 6th was kind of the last gasp of a movement, I still think that the period from around November 2016-summer 2017 was when you had more of a confident and offensive far right. I suppose people can pursue different strategies, and I'm not going to argue that the January 6th rioters shouldn't have been prosecuted or whatever, but my concern is that classic Popular Fronts have meant adopting a kind of lowest common denominator acceptable platform. As redsquirrel says, there's no chance of that actually happening in a functioning way anyway, but in so far as the logic of Mason's argument seems to point towards ditching any policies or movements that aren't acceptable to centrist Democrats it seems dodgy to me.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

LOL

 

[hitmouse]

I want to think of a joke to go here but I really can't think of any punchline that could be funnier than "radical social democrat into rhizomes".

 

[DaveCinzano]

I want to think of a joke to go here but I really can't think of any punchline that could be funnier than "radical social democrat into rhizomes".

Maybe he's trying to say that he's not a безродный космополит

 

[tim]

I think he's still rattled about all the criticism from the left he's been getting recently:



Apparently we're all tankies. What a wanker.

Yes, wanking against the Urban 75 Armoured Division. We'll probably skid on his spilt seed and end up in a ditch

 

[DaveCinzano]

Yes, wanking against the Urban 75 Armoured Division. We'll probably skid on his spilt seed and end up in a ditch

Something something naval infantry something seamen blasted all over the place something

 

[The39thStep]

 

[hitmouse]

that didn't last long, whatever it was.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Madder by the day..

 

[redsquirrel]

Madder by the day..

Even worse is the follow-up tweet

“The route to power for a transformative left is by gaining moral and intellectual leadership of the whole nation.”

Who needs the working class when you have the moral and intellectual leaders.
He really is following the same path as people like Cohen and Aaronovitch, defence of democracy, "radical democracy"

What is really pathetic is going down this path while pretending that you are still some sort of socialist.

 

[The39thStep]

 

[DaveCinzano]

Terry Nation's Daleks
John Christopher's Tripods

 

[ska invita]

I don't get it?
Is the joke there isn't really a threat of neofascism and he's delusional?

 

[ska invita]

Madder by the day..

What's the mad bit? Gesticulating?

 

[krtek a houby]

What's the mad bit? Gesticulating?

The Idea that promotion of a book about the rise of fascism means there's actually a rise of fascism.

Plus, y'know, Paul Mason.

 

[Humberto]

I don't think Fascism is back 'of its own accord', and very arguable whether it is 'back' at this stage.

It's not 'wrong-headed' people, it's class interest and a system worship by the powerful and rich that only benefits the powerful and rich. Fascism is an anti-communism tool of the powerful/rich.

 

[krtek a houby]

I don't think Fascism is back 'of its own accord', and very arguable whether it is 'back' at this stage.

It's not 'wrong-headed' people, it's class interest and a system worship by the powerful and rich that only benefits the powerful and rich. Fascism is an anti-communism tool of the powerful/rich.

The anti-socialist screed that Trump and his party have used over the past 5 years, the sheer contempt for the people, the use of racism, the caging of migrants, the use of the DoJ, the brutality of the cops, and the grifting certainly points in an ugly direction.

Of course, not all these elements are exclusive to that particular administration.

 

[RedRedRose]

Alarmist rhetoric aside, if this book is referencing the alt-right populism of Trump and Bolsonaro—it's already rather dated.

 

[krtek a houby]

Alarmist rhetoric aside, if this book is referencing the alt-right populism of Trump and Bolsonaro—it's already rather dated.

You don't think that the alt right is still very much alive, regardless of who is or isn't in office?

 

[RedRedRose]

You don't think that the alt right is still very much alive, regardless of who is or isn't in office?

Yes, but the video references these two amongst a couple of others.

 

[ska invita]

Alarmist rhetoric aside, if this book is referencing the alt-right populism of Trump and Bolsonaro—it's already rather dated.

I'm genuinely pit-of-the-stomach scared about the continuing rise of neo-fascism in the coming decades - many others are already experiencing it in some shape or form.
Never mind what has happened to some arsehole Proud Boy or other, just look at the trends in european election results where ethno-nationalism is alive and well, before glancing over at the dictatorships the majority of the world population live under.
Techno-totalitarianism may take a particular form under the Chinese Communist Party, but the lessons for every other state are clear.
Democracy is being hollowed out globally. Like this book says, democracy may never have existed but we'll miss it when its gone.
Add in a failing economic model and the arrival of the climate change tipping point putting huge strains on material conditions across the world and theres only one direction of travel that seems likely, and its not anarcho-communism.

Yes, but the video references these two amongst a couple of others.

only fair to judge a book by reading it first rather than a simplistic trailer

 

[redsquirrel]

What's neo-fascism? How does it differ from fascism?
All these terms - post-capitalist, neo-fascist, neofeudalism - if they are going to be thrown around can people at least put some meat on the bones.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

It's tempting to properly interrogate Mason on this. But that would involve buying the book. I'm going to watch the interview he did with the New Statesman and see what we can learn from this.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

In among the outpouring of crap Mason sometimes remembers what this is all about and where he came from (literally and politically):

 

[hitmouse]

A few threads this could go on, but it feels somewhat relevant to the discussion of (neo-)fascism and Mason's strategies above:

Seven Theses on the Three-Way Fight

By Devin Zane Shaw The seven theses I propose here were first published as part of a preface to T. Derbent’s German Communist Resistance...

threewayfight.blogspot.com

It's long so I've not actually finished reading it yet, but Three Way Fight generally has good intelligent stuff on it and what I've read so far seems pretty solid.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Adam Tooze dispatches the entire thesis of Mason’s ‘How to Fight Fascism’ in two paragraphs (also correctly identifies the shift of capital to Biden):

Has Covid ended the neoliberal era? | Adam Tooze

The long read: The year 2020 exposed the risks and weaknesses of the market-driven global system like never before. It’s hard to avoid the sense that a turning point has been reached

www.theguardian.com

 

[brogdale]

“The deal I thought we had with Starmer...”
Fucking tool.

 

[ska invita]

Adam Tooze dispatches the entire thesis of Mason’s ‘How to Fight Fascism’ in two paragraphs (also correctly identifies the shift of capital to Biden):

Have you read the book? I have... I dont think that contradicts the central arguments. Up for talking about it more if anyone who has read it fancies, but not worth it if its based on imagining what the book says.