Losing benefit if you're an addict or obese

[ViolentPanda]

Sorry to hear about your cousin.

Basic science says that to survive any warm blooded creature needs :-
Shelter / warmth
Water
Air
Food

There are no calories in shelter unless you are eating the furniture in which case you have more severe health problems to worry about that being overweight.
There are no calories in water and I do mean water not bottles of fizzy pop.
There are no calories in air unless you work in or live down wind of somewhere that utilizes powdered sugar by the ton.
There are calories in food.

Here's some more basic science for you.
The human body is not a closed system that cannot be influenced or infiltrated by external factors. Because of this it's perfectly feasible (and well-known in actual scientific research literature) that medications (which are, after all, "alien" to the human body) can influence the various competences of that body.
All your talk of sugar is meaningless in the face of that.

I'll take your word that he wasn't cheating so that leaves the hospital were over feeding him. Some may be down to water retention but you can get medication to control that if the hospital had bothered.

Nope. You can get medication to deal with some forms of fluid retention. They're called diuretics, and I've been taking one for 15 years. In tissue where the bulking effect has regularised, it's far harder to find medications to use to help fluid expulsion.
As for the hospital over-feeding him, they calorie-controlled him for 18 months. It was impossible for him to be overfed.

Just because reality doesn't fit to your frankly scientifically-naive vision of weight retention, doesn't mean reality is incorrect. Use Occam's Razor and it's you who are incorrect, whichever way you slice it.

At 70Kgs your cousin would only be obese (as this is what this thread is about) if he was under 5 ft tall. http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/healthy-living/Pages/height-weight-chart.aspx

And yet again you completely miss the point.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Correct. From malnutrition i.e too low a calorie intake. Conversely if your gaining weight your eating too many calories.

Nice to see you can work it out in one direction but not the other.

I can work it out in both directions, and unlike you, I don't take a selective approach to what facts I pay attention to or ignore.
Example: You claim that only input of calories causes weight-gain.
I say that livestock-raisers throughout the world have known for 40 years or more that antibiotics cause an increase in tissue mass without causing an increase in food consumption. In many states around the world antibiotics are actually licenced as food supplements and growth promoters in livestock (not in the UK, thankfully). That's just one class of drugs that causes weight gain without causing an increase in food consumption. There are many more even before we get into interactions between human biochemistry and medications causing the same problem.

So, who do I believe? The guy with the "High School"-level science education, who gets his facts from tabloid TV, or 40 years of well-researched science? You know, I think I'll go with the research, rather than with your claims!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Basic science, basic biology, basic medicine....

If only we all had your basic brain WouldBe

If only he actually understood "basic science, basic biology, basic medicine".

 

[kabbes]

WouldBe, you do realise that stored fat and calories are different things, right?

 

[likesfish]

Look if we had a system that got alcoholics drug addicts sober and or the serious obese fit again.
Then fair enough take treatment or no dole for you fair one.

We dont even if you go private theres no gauruntee its going to work there'd be no diet industry or criminal drug cartels if people could just quit when they wanted.
Addiction is complex if we have money to spend making fattys drinkers and junkies lives miserable and democracy thinks thats a laudable aim crack on
Personally think its a waste of cash much as I dislike the above doing nothing to address their problems without serious cash treatments whining at assorted social criminals is going to solve nothing.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Deciding who gets help based on if they "deserve" help is one of the more silly approaches I've ever heard. Often people who need it the most are the ones that the moralists in society say don't deserve it. The simple fact is, its usually cheaper to society as a whole to help, than it is not to help. Not helping has all sorts of costs attached, not all of it monetary

 

[KeeperofDragons]

Sorry to hear about your mum but unless the steroids contain loads of calories then you're wrong.

Where in my post did I say that steroids contain calories you prat - weight gain is a well known side effect of them for fucks sake. My mum was warned that she would gain weight so she adjusted her diet ie eating fewer calories and she still gained weight. Long term use of steroids also cause the face to become moon shaped which is happening to her and happened to a good friend of mine who has been on steroids for colitis since she was in her teens. If you had read what I actually posted you would have noticed that i was posting about side effects. Christ on a crutch, do some reading and then come back and make a proper contribution instead of spouting ignorant crap.

 

[scifisam]

dietitian

Unless you're in the USA.

[/pedant]

Nope: http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/dietician

You were doing well up to this point and I agree with what you say.


I'm not against people who are overweight, obese or even morbidly obese.

What I am against is people who repeatedly use myths and intelligent people who back up those myths that give people who are obese an excuse for not doing something about their condition.
You don't have to go hungry to lose weight or go on an expensive rabbit food diet just eat less calories per day than you need. It might take longer to lose the weight but it can be lost.

Eating fewer calories than you need usually leads to hunger. That's not a big deal - you can get past hunger. It's harder to do that without distractions from the hunger though. It's also harder to force yourself to eat sensibly if you're bored and food is one of the few sensory pleasures you can still access.

I think most people who are obese do try to do something about their condition, and most people want them to do so and will encourage them in their efforts. Telling them that it's just calories in, calories out and implying that they're lazy does not actually help them, which is why people who actually want to help avoid doing that.

 

[Sasaferrato]

WouldBe, you do realise that stored fat and calories are different things, right?

Stored calories, i.e. available for instant use, are stored as glycogen in the liver. There is in fact a drug, Glucagon, which can be used to raise blood sugar in insulin overdose.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Where in my post did I say that steroids contain calories you prat - weight gain is a well known side effect of them for fucks sake. My mum was warned that she would gain weight so she adjusted her diet ie eating fewer calories and she still gained weight. Long term use of steroids also cause the face to become moon shaped which is happening to her and happened to a good friend of mine who has been on steroids for colitis since she was in her teens. If you had read what I actually posted you would have noticed that i was posting about side effects. Christ on a crutch, do some reading and then come back and make a proper contribution instead of spouting ignorant crap.

Also fat deposit in the upper back, leading to the so called 'buffalo hump'.

 

[Sasaferrato]

That's a hell of a lot of fluid to retain. Shouldn't he have been put on medication to reduce this?

You can run of fluid with diuretics, however, some retained fluid is resistant. Diuretics bring their own problems of course, because you run off salts as well as water.

 

[Sasaferrato]

As is too many calories causes weight gain.
If a top athlete retired yet carried on eating the amount of calories they were used to would they / you be suprised if they put on weight?

If your metabolism slows for what ever reason why are you then suprised that you gain weight?

Or are you just using the medication myth as an excuse for being overweight / obese?

I would suggest that you do some in-depth research on this. As I said earlier in the absence of pathology and medication, it is simply a matter of calorie control. However, as VP so correctly stated, it is rarely so simple. The human body is an incredible machine, an incredibly complex organism. It is not that it goes wrong now and then that is a mystery, the mystery, and wonder, is that it works at all. The number of extraneous, as yet poorly understood, environmental pollutants has rocketed since I was a child. I suspect that what is allowed to be discharged freely into the biosphere now, to say nothing of food additives and the composition of containers, will be viewed with absolute horror in a few decades.

 

[Blagsta]

Stored calories, i.e. available for instant use, are stored as glycogen in the liver. There is in fact a drug, Glucagon, which can be used to raise blood sugar in insulin overdose.

Liver and muscles. Also glucagon is the hormone which converts glycogen back to glucose when blood glucose levels fall too low. Administered artificially for insulin overdose.

/pedant

 

[8115]

Yes, you can take in calories and medication can affect how those calories are metabolised. This is basic stuff.

I thought the idea of metabolism varying, apart from due to changing activity levels, was still undecided?

I definitely know that (for instance) medication affects activity levels, and amount of food consumed (I've experienced this myself and gained a lot of weight) but I didn't know that the idea of metabolism varying was now accepted as scientific fact. I'm pretty sure it wasn't in the 1980s.

 

[Blagsta]

I thought the idea of metabolism varying, apart from due to changing activity levels, was still undecided?

I definitely know that (for instance) medication affects activity levels, and amount of food consumed (I've experienced this myself and gained a lot of weight) but I didn't know that the idea of metabolism varying was now accepted as scientific fact. I'm pretty sure it wasn't in the 1980s.

The effects of glucocorticoids on metabolism is pretty well established, although exact mechanisms aren't completely clear afaik.

 

[8115]

The effects of glucocorticoids on metabolism is pretty well established, although exact mechanisms aren't completely clear afaik.

Thanks.

 

[friendofdorothy]

All this chat about calories and whether or not the obese just lack self control - is getting away from the facts.

The govt is yet again attacking some of the poorest in our society - and making easy column inches by demonising those with addiction problems.

 

[Corax]

Nope: http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/dietician

From your own link:

Definition of dietician in:

• US English dictionary

Anyway, you can take it up with the two dozen dietitians that I share an office with...

ETA: https://www.bda.uk.com/improvinghealth/yourhealth/hcpc

 

[The Pale King]

Diets etc are totally irrelevant. The social security system should not be repurposed as an instrument of moral inquisition and punishment. Let them eat cake.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Liver and muscles. Also glucagon is the hormone which converts glycogen back to glucose when blood glucose levels fall too low. Administered artificially for insulin overdose.

/pedant

As an ex-pharmacist, I have been criticised over the years for leaving people glassy-eyed, as I answer their question regarding medication. Now, I keep it basic. If folk want more info, they will ask.

 

[Sasaferrato]

The effects of glucocorticoids on metabolism is pretty well established, although exact mechanisms aren't completely clear afaik.

Wish I had a quid for every time I've read that. Bit scary really, the use is empirical, so we don't really know what else may be going on. Ten generations on, the human race will be three legged, due to the use of steroids.

 

[Corax]

Wish I had a quid for every time I've read that. Bit scary really, the use is empirical, so we don't really know what else may be going on. Ten generations on, the human race will be three legged, due to the use of steroids.

Some of us already are.

[/viz]

 

[DexterTCN]

Also fat deposit in the upper back, leading to the so called 'buffalo hump'.

Jesus Sas, it's not sexy.

That's disgusting.

 

[laptop]

Meanwhile...

A universal-credit claimant who featured in a government film to promote the reform now says the system is riddled with computer problems and could make people destitute.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-31487792

 

[Grandma Death]

I've just read this. I am lost for words.

Im not. The tories have effectively won the argument on welfare-which is why even with a flailing minister like IDS they still wont bin him...partly because it doesnt look good they bin him when he is the central plank of their policy on welfare and he and his sidekick McVey use just the right rhetoric in this entire debate. Expect more vicious anti welfare rhetoric leading up the GE...that and the continuous use of the phrase 'hard working families'.

Personally I believe one of the reasons why the tories have won this debate is because with pretty much every 'reform' apart from the bedroom tax labour has supported when it comes to welfare and Rachel Reeves language is just as inflammatory as the tories.

I find it very depressing

 

[treelover]

Perhaps also consider the lack of determined opposition from civil society, etc, and I don't mean the odd demo, DPAC have done sterling work as have Unite Community, but where is the usual mass coalitions we have for anti-edl, anti-war, etc?

 

[KeeperofDragons]

Perhaps also consider the lack of determined opposition from civil society, etc, and I don't mean the odd demo, DPAC have done sterling work as have Unite Community, but where is the usual mass coalitions we have for anti-edl, anti-war, etc?

Probably because a lot of them think oh they only the unemployed & scroungers so they don't really matter

 

[mwgdrwg]

Probably because a lot of them think oh they only the unemployed & scroungers so they don't really matter

Conditioned by years of propoganda against the poor, which is still going strong with crap such as Benefits Britain etc.

 

[KeeperofDragons]

Conditioned by years of propoganda against the poor, which is still going strong with crap such as Benefits Britain etc.

Very true

 

[ViolentPanda]

All this chat about calories and whether or not the obese just lack self control - is getting away from the facts.

The govt is yet again attacking some of the poorest in our society - and making easy column inches by demonising those with addiction problems.

The argument about "self-control" is at the root of why they're attacking these particular members of society, though - because the obese and the addicted can be projected as lacking self-control; can be stigmatised as the authors of our own misfortune, and therefore can be made targets of (self)-righteous indignation. Unless we address the self-control issue, we leave space for governments to pull the same stunts over and over again.