past caring
The Cathars were right
She seems to think that there's an expectation amongst some here arguing ba's corner that black people should not be tories - but no-one has explicitly said that. And it's certainly not something that I think.
Lord Taylor is guilty
- Thread starter Divisive Cotton
- Start date
She seems to think that there's an expectation amongst some here arguing ba's corner that black people should not be tories - but no-one has explicitly said that. And it's certainly not something that I think.
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
The tories are a racist party, by and large, so I do think it's odd that a black person would be a tory, although as usual class trumps race when it comes to rich people's solidarity.
Treacle Toes
Time
It is not my subtext, just because I am aware of it doesn't make it mine. I have highlighted that it exists because I think it's important that people are aware of it. What I am asking for is people at least develop some awareness that be you anti racist/facist or whatever, you are not above checking the associations you make and the language you use.
Yes.
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
If you don't think that BA and DC were being racist, what is it you're objecting to? You think that they were being crude and provocative but not racist?
past caring
The Cathars were right
To be honest, I think there are significant differences between the two terms - "coconut", I concede does very definitely does go along with a discourse that prescribes what it is (or should be) to be a black person. I also thinks it inherently sets up different values for different races. And I'll admit that I'd be uncomfortable on a plain human level hearing a black person use that term, let alone a white person. But I think the term "chalky" is different - it was coined (or at least given popular currency) by a racist as cover for his racism. To use that term specifically to refer to someone who allowed themselves to be used in that way is, I think, entirely legitimate. I don't see why it would be racist used in that way - perhaps you can explain it to me?
Treacle Toes
Time
I can only speak for myself and TBH I don't have any higher expectations of SB and therefore ignored his attempts at having fun.
_angel_
.
This kind of thing always happens on Urban doesn't it, 10 million posts about something that people misinterpret/ are determined to find racism in, then an actual example of racism gets ignored!
FWIW I don't think it was intended to be racist, but it was certainly provocative and likely to cause offence without further explanation. Which begs the question why not put more detail into the original post rather than reacting with dismissive surprise when the one liners caused a stir.
There seems to be more far more effort expended in defending the right to use asinine Jim Davidson japes from the past (why/) than putting together a more balanced post in the first place. Nobody's asking for kid gloves, but nobody could exactly be surprised that some folks may object to posters shouting 'coconut' or 'chalky' one liners at the start of a thread without any further context either.
There seems to be more far more effort expended in defending the right to use asinine Jim Davidson japes from the past (why/) than putting together a more balanced post in the first place. Nobody's asking for kid gloves, but nobody could exactly be surprised that some folks may object to posters shouting 'coconut' or 'chalky' one liners at the start of a thread without any further context either.
Treacle Toes
Time
One major difference. Chalky was a fictional character, represented as an object of justifiable ridicule using his racial/cultural attitudes, values as a basic premise. LT isn't fictional. Applying the same premise to ridicule LT is what is problematic IMO.
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
'Uncle Tom' was/is fictional.
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
I don't get what you're saying here. We should have more respect for LT because he's not fictional? Edit: as Fed points out above, the fictional character is being used as a reference to ridicule the real person.
Treacle Toes
Time
Determined? Just because you don't have the same opinion or level of awareness doesn't mean that others are 'more determined'.
Actual racism? You are aware that not all prejudice and reinforcing discourse resides at the 'in your face' ,overt level aren't you? Of course you are.
It's often evident in the associations/allusions people make and the expectations people have.
I am not saying that I thought it was intentional. I reserve the right to point it out though.
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
So you are saying that it's racist to expect a black person to not be a tory?
It's a statistically proven fact that every time you tell someone it's ok to back down, the chance of them doing is reduced by 80%.
Treacle Toes
Time
I am saying that relating to someone primarily on the basis of him being Black and characterising/ridiculing him as such(chalky/coconut/uncle tom) implies you have certain expectations of him because of his 'blackness' and as such is no better than what Davidson did IMO.
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
You mean that commenting on his role as a black tory is reducing him to being just black? I can see your point, but I don't agree that it's no better than Jim Davidson ffs, that's just forgetting what a poisonous racist Davidson actually was. And tbh people do have expectations of other people. For example I have an expectation that people from Liverpool will, on the whole, not be tories.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Couldn't have happened to a nicer Tory.
past caring
The Cathars were right
And - were there a real-life/historical black figure who was widely known for having provided a cover for racism - there would been no objection to using that figure's name to describe Taylor?
Treacle Toes
Time
Even more reason not to use one of Davidson's characterisations to ridicule LT IMO.
Makes me think of how Jody McIntyre was ridiculed by alikening him to Andy from Little Britain recently.
The expectation/implication is that you are only a 'real' X, Y or Z if you do/think X, Y or Z....it stinks.
claphamboy
The wheels on the bus go round and round....
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
It is fair to say that Taylor, both as a Prospective Parliamentary Candidate (for Cheltenham, IIRC, where the local Tories objected to his melanin content) and as a Tory lord, fig-leaved some of the party's more distasteful ventures into blatant racism.
Myself, I wouldn't call him "Chalky", I'd call him what he was and is: A cunt.
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
Sexist!
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
The expectation/implication is that you are only a 'real' X, Y or Z if you do/think X, Y or Z....it stinks.[/QUOTE] So you are basically just arguing for the right of black people to be tories without anyone mentioning that it's odd that they're in a racist party?
Do you think that LT acted as a fig-leaf for the tories? Because if you do, then surely it's important to mention it? And then you're just taking issue with BA's tone of voice, accusing him of not being suitably delicate about it.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Hang on - i never once suggested he isn't a real black man - he is. I've nowhere gone near suggesting black men have to be right-on types or have to be anything at all. I'm perfectly aware that black people can have reactionary or right wing views. What i said was that this bloke played the role of enabling a racist party to disguise that racism and to dismiss criticisms of that racism. I didn't say that this was wrong because he's a black person but because it's wrong full stop. (Though of course Taylor did use - or allow to be used - his colour as his marketing point, as his USP so to speak).
Similar threads
