London Anarchist Bookfair 2022

[cloudyday]

I'll do you a spread.

something about pain, bondage, and the inescapable return of millenarian prophets.

 

[RD2003]

Is there any concrete evidence of anarchist/syndicalist reponsibility for the unionisation of marginalised workers? I don't doubt the involvement of people who are in this political tradition in some workplaces, by committed individuals and/or small groups. But that leaves the problem of the vast swathes that remain non-unionised. An 'anarchist' movement/scene which can't possibly 'catch on' due to its own contradictions and self-reinforcing limitations, and which is, when you look at reality, deeply unappealing to the average low-paid, pressurised worker, and thus can never grow and never will, cannot possibly affect this.

Can anybody imagine an English, let alone east European, Moroccan, Iraqi or whatever, call-centre worker or Amazon driver going away from an anarchist bookfair with a sense of inspiration or hope? Not that they'd be there in the first place.

 

[TopCat]

Hedley would have been a mess just on his own merits afaics, let alone with his domestic abuse skeletons in the background - couldn't stop himself from trying to bully people on Facebook after a few beers for a start, which I couldn't see translating well to say, a wind-up interview with Piers Morgan.

He offered me out on facebook after a mild criticism. Must have been pissed as he blocked me in the morning.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Can anybody imagine an English, let alone east European, Moroccan, Iraqi or whatever, call-centre worker or Amazon driver going away from an anarchist bookfair with a sense of inspiration or hope? Not that they'd be there in the first place.

I can imagine all these things, yes.

 

[Pickman's model]

Is there any concrete evidence of anarchist/syndicalist reponsibility for the unionisation of marginalised workers? I don't doubt the involvement of people who are in this political tradition in some workplaces, by committed individuals and/or small groups. But that leaves the problem of the vast swathes that remain non-unionised. An 'anarchist' movement/scene which can't possibly 'catch on' due to its own contradictions and self-reinforcing limitations, and which is, when you look at reality, deeply unappealing to the average low-paid, pressurised worker, and thus can never grow and never will, cannot possibly affect this.

Can anybody imagine an English, let alone east European, Moroccan, Iraqi or whatever, call-centre worker or Amazon driver going away from an anarchist bookfair with a sense of inspiration or hope? Not that they'd be there in the first place.

Can't imagine any of those workers leaving one of your posts with a sense of inspiration or hope.

 

[The39thStep]

I can imagine all these things, yes.

The hope that springs eternal ...........

 

[Pickman's model]

The nearest Spoons is the traditional close-to-but-not-in-Bookfair staging post

We've often joked here about the battle of Holloway Road. But I wonder if there'll be a battle of Liverpool Street station between visitors to the bookfair and some of the less progressive football fans who pass through the station and the Hamilton Hall going to and coming from matches.

 

[hitmouse]

None of this was populist in any real sense. Probably 99% of the population had never heard of any of it.

Is there any concrete evidence of anarchist/syndicalist reponsibility for the unionisation of marginalised workers? I don't doubt the involvement of people who are in this political tradition in some workplaces, by committed individuals and/or small groups. But that leaves the problem of the vast swathes that remain non-unionised.

Yes, there are people of this political tradition involved in unionising in some workplaces. Yes, it is also the case that vast sections of the economy remain non-unionised. Not quite sure this is a killer point, unless you're arguing against someone who's claimed that anarchists/syndicalists have organised the entire British workforce?

We've often joked here about the battle of Holloway Road. But I wonder if there'll be a battle of Liverpool Street station between visitors to the bookfair and some of the less progressive football fans who pass through the station and the Hamilton Hall going to and coming from matches.

I can't see why there'd need to be football fans involved, I would think that bookfair visitors would be capable of staging a perfectly good battle on their own?

 

[LDC]

Is there any concrete evidence of anarchist/syndicalist reponsibility for the unionisation of marginalised workers? I don't doubt the involvement of people who are in this political tradition in some workplaces, by committed individuals and/or small groups. But that leaves the problem of the vast swathes that remain non-unionised. An 'anarchist' movement/scene which can't possibly 'catch on' due to its own contradictions and self-reinforcing limitations, and which is, when you look at reality, deeply unappealing to the average low-paid, pressurised worker, and thus can never grow and never will, cannot possibly affect this.

Can anybody imagine an English, let alone east European, Moroccan, Iraqi or whatever, call-centre worker or Amazon driver going away from an anarchist bookfair with a sense of inspiration or hope? Not that they'd be there in the first place.

Aside from the sweeping, inaccurate, and suspect generalisation in the last bit (which is also clearly nonsense) I think you're mistaking a fragment of the anarchist movement (the more modern, smaller, and more obvious sub-cultural scene) with the wider politics that bubbles away mostly outside that. Anarchists have also been present as part of revolutions, social movement, and struggles (including union ones) and as such have often been the ones pushing for more radical and militant action when others are more reticent. So I'd argue that pretty much any gains made by these struggles over the decades (and still are ongoing) can in large part be put down to the intransigence of anarchists in their militancy.

 

[Pickman's model]

I can't see why there'd need to be football fans involved, I would think that bookfair visitors would be capable of staging a perfectly good battle on their own?

Anyone who was in the coronet before the battle of Holloway Road will recall the sound system which closed down the pub. And the smashing of same by other anarchists. You're right, it's perfectly possible there could be some internal confrontation as there was in 2017. But here there is also a greater chance of a scrap with other groups in the area than usual. So not either or but and

 

[hitmouse]

The CP and the IS/SWP tradition of shop stewards committees and rank and file have as much claim to that 'end of the spectrum' as the anarchists. Probably more so as I cant recall members of either the CP or IS being anti trade union

Yes of course , and i fully support the attempts to recruit , unionise and go for industrial action in those areas .My point was that this end of the spectrum can't be exclusively be claimed as part of some anarchist hinterland.

Going back to this as a perhaps more interesting avenue of discussion, I'd tend to agree with what Rob Ray and nogojones said above - looking specifically at the past decade or so, there has been some very valuable stuff from the construction r'n'f, which I'd guess probably has more people who've at least passed through the SP or SWP than it has anarchists? But beyond that, there's the IWGB/UVW/CAIWU stuff, which is definitely very far from trot, let alone CP, traditions, since as I understand it the normal UK trot line has always been that setting up new unions is self-indulgent subcultural stuff and you should be working in the mainstream unions where all the workers are (even if they're not).

I dunno, it's just interesting to me that I think for a while there was the debate between trots who argued for working in the existing unions, and then wob/SolFed types who argued that there was fertile grounds for organising outside them... and then what actually happened with the IWGB and UVW sort of vindicated the IWW and SolFed, but then again it sort of very much didn't, because the majority of organising that happened didn't take place through those groups either.

 

[LDC]

Something from the whole anarchists and unions debate.

Outside and Against the Unions

Wildcat Outside and Against the Unions A communist response to Dave Douglass’ text “Refracted Perspective”

theanarchistlibrary.org

 

[Pickman's model]

Something from the whole anarchists and unions debate.

Outside and Against the Unions

Wildcat Outside and Against the Unions A communist response to Dave Douglass’ text “Refracted Perspective”

theanarchistlibrary.org

From 30 years ago

 

[The39thStep]

Going back to this as a perhaps more interesting avenue of discussion, I'd tend to agree with what Rob Ray and nogojones said above - looking specifically at the past decade or so, there has been some very valuable stuff from the construction r'n'f, which I'd guess probably has more people who've at least passed through the SP or SWP than it has anarchists? But beyond that, there's the IWGB/UVW/CAIWU stuff, which is definitely very far from trot, let alone CP, traditions, since as I understand it the normal UK trot line has always been that setting up new unions is self-indulgent subcultural stuff and you should be working in the mainstream unions where all the workers are (even if they're not).

I dunno, it's just interesting to me that I think for a while there was the debate between trots who argued for working in the existing unions, and then wob/SolFed types who argued that there was fertile grounds for organising outside them... and then what actually happened with the IWGB and UVW sort of vindicated the IWW and SolFed, but then again it sort of very much didn't, because the majority of organising that happened didn't take place through those groups either.

It's definitely worthy of a longer discussion and yes you are correct about the initial response from both SWP and SP to the 'new unions'. I know a couple of people involved in the construction stuff and although never members of Trot groups themselves they are heavily influenced by 'rank and file-ism' ( one has a father who was in the IS/SWP Buiding Workers group and the other has intermittently been on the periphery of the SP ) BTW I glanced at the Angry Worker's site recently to find them discussing Jonathan Neale's book , Memoirs of a Callous Picket. Neale was an SWP member when he wrote it .

UNITE's recent call to rebuild a shop stewards movement is an exciting proposition for anyone interested in militant rank and file activity, and with the potential to draw in and potentially create a whole new layer of w/class activists.

 

[Dom Traynor]

Good to hear if headway's being made - I was hearing Unite had been pretty dreadful, while from seeing it first-hand the NUJ's been caught between some quite good reps and a membership based in the older outlets who got proper sneery about Internet Journalists.

I organise journalists including freelancers and we have just signed up our first couple of professional YouTubers.

 

[cloudyday]

UNITE's recent call to rebuild a shop stewards movement is an exciting proposition for anyone interested in militant rank and file activity, and with the potential to draw in and potentially create a whole new layer of w/class activists.

The hope that springs eternal ...........

 

[The39thStep]

The hope that springs eternal ...........

Blockhead

 

[nogojones]

He offered me out on facebook after a mild criticism. Must have been pissed as he blocked me in the morning.

Date night spoiled

 

[Red Sky]

Hippy stuff.

Ooh you're hard.

 

[Red Sky]

He offered me out on facebook after a mild criticism. Must have been pissed as he blocked me in the morning.

Similar, friended and blocked in the same fortnight iirc.

 

[RD2003]

Aside from the sweeping, inaccurate, and suspect generalisation in the last bit (which is also clearly nonsense) I think you're mistaking a fragment of the anarchist movement (the more modern, smaller, and more obvious sub-cultural scene) with the wider politics that bubbles away mostly outside that. Anarchists have also been present as part of revolutions, social movement, and struggles (including union ones) and as such have often been the ones pushing for more radical and militant action when others are more reticent. So I'd argue that pretty much any gains made by these struggles over the decades (and still are ongoing) can in large part be put down to the intransigence of anarchists in their militancy.

Generalisations perhaps, but nothing suspect. I was trying to imagine what any hard-pressed worker in the zero-hours contract etc segment of the economy would make of the madness that, at least from what you read on here, goes on at anarchist bookfairs (this being a thread about an anarchist bookfair, and similar to all the other threads on the subject over the years). In particular, I can't imagine workers from elsewhere being too impressed, especially if they come from places where political insanity and pointless factionalism etc has real, life-destroying consequences.

Are you really trying to argue that strikes, social struggles and even revolutions which have been victorious or partially successful have been so due to the contribution of anarchists, when they are so few in number, and all but invisible/ not even present in most that you could mention. It would, for example be stretching it a bit to say that the successful strikes of 1970s Britain, or the initially successful (at least in terms of achieving power and raising the living standards of the poorest) Cuban or Sandinista revolutions, say, was due to 'the intransigence of anarchists in their militancy.'

I do think that anarchist theory and practice has something to offer, but have met literally nobody outside the organised far-left who knows what that theory or practice is, or have even met an anarchist or would recognise one as such if they did.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I get quite confused by this - and I used to be in one of them.

I can think of one individual who was in both! Lol

 

[charlie mowbray]

Generalisations perhaps, but nothing suspect. I was trying to imagine what any hard-pressed worker in the zero-hours contract etc segment of the economy would make of the madness that, at least from what you read on here, goes on at anarchist bookfairs (this being a thread about an anarchist bookfair, and similar to all the other threads on the subject over the years). In particular, I can't imagine workers from elsewhere being too impressed, especially if they come from places where political insanity and pointless factionalism etc has real, life-destroying consequences.

Are you really trying to argue that strikes, social struggles and even revolutions which have been victorious or partially successful have been so due to the contribution of anarchists, when they are so few in number, and all but invisible/ not even present in most that you could mention. It would, for example be stretching it a bit to say that the successful strikes of 1970s Britain, or the initially successful (at least in terms of achieving power and raising the living standards of the poorest) Cuban or Sandinista revolutions, say, was due to 'the intransigence of anarchists in their militancy.'

I do think that anarchist theory and practice has something to offer, but have met literally nobody outside the organised far-left who knows what that theory or practice is, or have even met an anarchist or would recognise one as such if they did.

Cuba had a large anarchist movement, Castro closed it down with his "successful" revolution. "or have even met an anarchist or would recognise one as such if they did." You need to get out a bit more. RE doing work around "hard-pressed workers in the zero -hours segment" I and other anarchists have long helped and given solidarity over a long period of time, turning out for IWW, UVW, CAIWU and IWGB actions. Apart from the pointless insanity as demonstrated on this thread, there are serious class struggle anarchists out there attempting to face towards the class and out of the ghetto.

 

[RD2003]

Cuba had a large anarchist movement, Castro closed it down with his "successful" revolution. "or have even met an anarchist or would recognise one as such if they did." You need to get out a bit more. RE doing work around "hard-pressed workers in the zero -hours segment" I and other anarchists have long helped and given solidarity over a long period of time, turning out for IWW, UVW, CAIWU and IWGB actions. Apart from the pointless insanity as demonstrated on this thread, there are serious class struggle anarchists out there attempting to face towards the class and out of the ghetto.

I don't doubt you have been helping out and giving solidarity. I acknowledged that anarchists do this. But it doesn't alter the fact that nobody outside the radical left would recognise a class-struggle anarchist if they fell over them. And the obvious flaws in the thinking and practice absolutely guarantees that it will remain completely invisible to the overwhelming majority.

 

[charlie mowbray]

and may I enquire what are these "obvious flaws"? Are you a Leninist , by the way?

 

[RD2003]

and may I enquire what are these "obvious flaws"? Are you a Leninist , by the way?

30-odd years ago, I might have called myself a Leninist, although I was probably a shit one, and never entirely convinced by it.

Without trying to go into it too much, as I know only the very basics (always having considered it permanently marginal, I never bothered learning more), I'd say the flaws are obvious in that a mass movement has never arisen out of anarchist practice aside from in a handful of places. Where it has had some success, it ended up getting fucked over from left and right.

 

[charlie mowbray]

So you admit you know very little about it, and can't be bothered to actually familiarise yourself with it. You also know very little about history of the movement, and where it became a mass movement or was influential, in far more areas than you seem to believe. Of course it got fucked over when it became successful, that's what happens under capitalism, and will remain so until capitalism ends. You seem to be talking out of your arse. my friend.

 

[danny la rouge]

Anyway, good luck to this bookfair. Hope they have a good day.

 

[danny la rouge]

I’m serious. Good luck to them.

 

[RD2003]

So you admit you know very little about it, and can't be bothered to actually familiarise yourself with it. You also know very little about history of the movement, and where it became a mass movement or was influential, in far more areas than you seem to believe. Of course it got fucked over when it became successful, that's what happens under capitalism, and will remain so until capitalism ends. You seem to be talking out of your arse. my friend.

I don't see the point of a drawn-out debate on it, as I feel certain that in 50 years time, assuming society is still intact, people will still be having a debate about whether anarchism will ever achieve a breakthrough, and I'm not going to convince anybody here of anything anyway, nor seek to.

But if the only kind of mass movement you envisage gets fucked over by capitalism every time, then capitalism will surely never end. Or at least not at the hands of anrachism-influenced revolution.