andysays
Love and solidarity
The opportunity to meet two of Urban's most illustrious posters seems like a good excuse for me to come too then.
London Anarchist bookfair 2020
- Thread starter Treacle Toes
- Start date
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Don't think I'm yet ready for the transport involved and spending time indoors with lots of folk.
Nice. Where can I buy this? Genuinely interested.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
In Scotland you can get it in Tesco’s.
Another reason to live in Scotland
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
There will be clowns
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Yeah, 'doxxing' has been mentioned along with transphobia, again with no specific incident or behaviour to illustrate either. On the subject of doxxing* there's been nothing concrete that I've seen, and unless the ACG agreed to do it as a group then I'm baffled as to how a whole organisation can be banned for that?
*I'm afraid that I'm a bit cynical with this. I thought doxxing was purposefully spreading someone's personal info across the internet to try and harm them. But the way I've seen it used much more commonly is when someone mentions a name in passing in a comment (especially if it's their pre-transitioning name) or anything like that, rather than what I thought it was (purposefully, for harm, etc.). Basically does seem to be used as a power game to exclude and shut people up sometimes tbh, or as a playground 'no comebacks' kind of thing that ends any further discussion or questioning.
Also on the subject of all this I thought one of the things we tried to do was assume people could make mistakes (or even do bad things on purpose) but they should generally be given the chance to recognize, acknowledge, and change their shit behaviour/attitudes, otherwise we're a bit fucked as a society and we're just aping the worst of the essentialist right wing where people are simply good/bad, perfect/doomed, comrades/enemies, etc. So allowing the chance for either some accountability process, mediation, or personal/group reflection on what's happened, etc. to try and sort this stuff out.
But surely as a first step those things need the person/people involved actually knowing what they've done is wrong/unacceptable. Not giving any specifics and explaining why a person or a group is banned from somewhere doesn't seem to be done in any helpful or progressive way, and smacks more of petty power play, and I'm afraid makes me suspect there isn't anything concrete that a reasonable person would think means you can ban a whole organisation from the bookfair.
*I'm afraid that I'm a bit cynical with this. I thought doxxing was purposefully spreading someone's personal info across the internet to try and harm them. But the way I've seen it used much more commonly is when someone mentions a name in passing in a comment (especially if it's their pre-transitioning name) or anything like that, rather than what I thought it was (purposefully, for harm, etc.). Basically does seem to be used as a power game to exclude and shut people up sometimes tbh, or as a playground 'no comebacks' kind of thing that ends any further discussion or questioning.
Also on the subject of all this I thought one of the things we tried to do was assume people could make mistakes (or even do bad things on purpose) but they should generally be given the chance to recognize, acknowledge, and change their shit behaviour/attitudes, otherwise we're a bit fucked as a society and we're just aping the worst of the essentialist right wing where people are simply good/bad, perfect/doomed, comrades/enemies, etc. So allowing the chance for either some accountability process, mediation, or personal/group reflection on what's happened, etc. to try and sort this stuff out.
But surely as a first step those things need the person/people involved actually knowing what they've done is wrong/unacceptable. Not giving any specifics and explaining why a person or a group is banned from somewhere doesn't seem to be done in any helpful or progressive way, and smacks more of petty power play, and I'm afraid makes me suspect there isn't anything concrete that a reasonable person would think means you can ban a whole organisation from the bookfair.
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danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
One small point to make: the alleged doxxing took place after we’d been ghosted. 3 Emails and a web form had already been ignored by the time of the alleged doxxing. (Which is by an anonymous Twitter account and not known to us. And on inspection it does not give away any details not already in the public domain, and does not identify a real life address. It alleges one online account is by another online account).
The “doxxing” is not a reason we were ignored. It is a retro fitted rationalisation.
I had no authority to make this statement, but I don’t see why the other side gets to make all the accusations with no come back.
The “doxxing” is not a reason we were ignored. It is a retro fitted rationalisation.
I had no authority to make this statement, but I don’t see why the other side gets to make all the accusations with no come back.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Yep, top-down secrecy and evasiveness are hardly prefigurative attributes of the political economy outcome that anarchists desire.
Dog whistle is used in a similar way - it's supposed, I thought, to be a conscious purposeful coded way of communicating to an audience who also understands the code, but actually seems to include any comment that sounds like it might be a dog whistle and to suggest that it might not be a dog whistle is also a dog whistle.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
It seems to mean in this instance: “something that isn’t objectionable but with which we happen to disagree”.
hitmouse
so defeated, thinks it's funny
That, and the fact that it's as far away from London as you can get without leaving this island.
"...but doctor, I am the great organiser Pagliacci!"
In the interest of strict accuracy, I'd add that as I understand it, it also included a name, but it was a name that comes up as the first result if you search for one of those online accounts, and has been used to sign articles in the past, so again nothing that wasn't already in the public domain.
That is a genuinely tricky one, imo - it certainly is the case that bigots often tend to deliberately communicate using innocent-sounding language, so anyone who spends a lot of time paying attention to said bigots will end up bristling at any mention of certain words or phrases, and that's a legit reaction. But at the same time obviously you can't really go "ah, you're using innocent-sounding language, so you must be a bigot!"
charlie mowbray
The Enforcer
I won't be at the London Bookfair, but depending on the weather will be meeting up with people after at a green space a bit south of there.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Not a proper bookfair without you there
nogojones
spelling is overrated
Nice to see Jedward are changing up the hairdo's a bit
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Well, essentially, that's what I meant. It does though have a feel of that wider politics. It's a kind of deplatforming, but an awkward one. They can't say you are banned because of trans rights issues because that's absurd and doesn't stand up to scrutiny, thus the preposterous 'reasons... we're not telling you...' on this thread. I'd have had a tad more respect for the organisers if they'd actually come out an said why they banned the ACG stall, though it would have still been a bad decision for the movement. It would at least have met the most requirements of organising an event.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Warning: self indulgent middle aged (ex?) anarchist post....
The London Bookfair has been a massive thing for me in the last 30 years. I've rarely missed a year (and usually only if out of the country) and it was always an exciting, inspiring, and fun thing to go to. I started going when I was 17, and finding and meeting other anarchists (...anarchists sarge, thousands of 'em) and all their groups (and staunchly anti-organisational non-groups) was brilliant, and sparked and fueled many a friendship.
It was the big public event that people gravitated towards (from all over the world too, there was always loads of international comrades there); its history, being in London, being brilliantly organised and well advertised all helped make it this, as well as its (mostly) open-ness and broad scope of what was there. It sucked it many a burgeoning young anarchist as it was something they knew that was going on and they could relatively easily go to, especially people from small towns and villages where there was no visible anarchist presence.
So it was very important in my opinion, and the groups, people and workshops/talks there informed what the movement looked like to people, what anarchism is about, and so what groups and projects people then go on to be involved with. I think it had a big impact, even if that was sometimes not easy to see. It was always pretty broad brush in who and what attended, and I think that was also very important, reflective of what anarchism (and even anarchy) looks or might look like - for good and bad, for sensible and mad.
It seems to be heading towards a more narrow definition of what this type of politics is now, and despite the insistence of some (on here and elsewhere) that's it's still challenging, revolutionary, and potentially transformative, that's not the impression it gives out, both from the attitude of the organisers and the stalls and workshops there. It does seem to be reflective of the times and cultural and political shifts we've talked about at length on here for sure, and longer term to me this direction looks like it will increasingly relegate anarchism and anarchist attitudes and activity into just a weird sub-cultural offshoot of left wing progressive politics that's just more militant in its moralistic and judgemental positions, and more about personal stuff than anything wider, even if it does pay some kind of vague lip service to its history.
The London Bookfair has been a massive thing for me in the last 30 years. I've rarely missed a year (and usually only if out of the country) and it was always an exciting, inspiring, and fun thing to go to. I started going when I was 17, and finding and meeting other anarchists (...anarchists sarge, thousands of 'em) and all their groups (and staunchly anti-organisational non-groups) was brilliant, and sparked and fueled many a friendship.
It was the big public event that people gravitated towards (from all over the world too, there was always loads of international comrades there); its history, being in London, being brilliantly organised and well advertised all helped make it this, as well as its (mostly) open-ness and broad scope of what was there. It sucked it many a burgeoning young anarchist as it was something they knew that was going on and they could relatively easily go to, especially people from small towns and villages where there was no visible anarchist presence.
So it was very important in my opinion, and the groups, people and workshops/talks there informed what the movement looked like to people, what anarchism is about, and so what groups and projects people then go on to be involved with. I think it had a big impact, even if that was sometimes not easy to see. It was always pretty broad brush in who and what attended, and I think that was also very important, reflective of what anarchism (and even anarchy) looks or might look like - for good and bad, for sensible and mad.
It seems to be heading towards a more narrow definition of what this type of politics is now, and despite the insistence of some (on here and elsewhere) that's it's still challenging, revolutionary, and potentially transformative, that's not the impression it gives out, both from the attitude of the organisers and the stalls and workshops there. It does seem to be reflective of the times and cultural and political shifts we've talked about at length on here for sure, and longer term to me this direction looks like it will increasingly relegate anarchism and anarchist attitudes and activity into just a weird sub-cultural offshoot of left wing progressive politics that's just more militant in its moralistic and judgemental positions, and more about personal stuff than anything wider, even if it does pay some kind of vague lip service to its history.
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
TL;dr? Read it anyway
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Correct. I’ve never been and so have no historical affection for it. I personally wouldn’t go. I personally don’t think the ACG should go or apply for stalls.
However, this spat does need cleared up because people keep smearing us as transphobes and it’s got to stop.
ska invita
back on the other side
we need to ask the opinion of another 17 year old
I guess that's the thing, some people pay a lot of attention to these communications and have good reason to. I don't feel that I do, so I limit my exposure to social media as I think it fucks with your head.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
That makes the point I was going to make, but does it better. I'm guessing - and that's all we can do with the complete lack of engagement - is that 'the ACG supported X who is transphobic' is floating around as an off the peg (inaccurate) accusation. There might be other things the organisers have a beef about so it's sometimes a background issue, sometimes in the foreground, but it's always available as a self justification if you want to do something like banning them. And it's that kind of categoric, shutters come down, thinking that the movement doesn't need. The refusal to engage is or even tell the ACG they have been banned is preposterous, but is only a side effect of this politics of immaturity.
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
I went to the last three book fairs in London. I found it really impressive, just the sort of event that could motivate uncommitted lefties towards an anarchist or anarchistic position. Then all that trans controversy blew up, with all the resulting bitterness and accusations. I still firmly believe that the anarchist movement should be able to accommodate a range of views on the trans issue. Slagging off those who do not accept the new gender ideology, labelling anyone who disagrees with any of it as transphobic or worse, no-platforming gender-critical feminists: all that does is build barriers to wider understanding and entrenches division. It's happening all over the left. Not good.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
How Theresa may must account this one of her great successes
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
It’s perfectly clear that (whoever these people are) they don’t feel we are part of the same movement as them. And given the evidence, I don’t think that should bother us. We probably aren’t.
But if they can just get on with whatever it is they do without spreading lies about us that would be optimal.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Yep to all of that. It was great in terms of overcoming isolation if you were from somewhere with not much of an anarchist presence as you say and you just felt part of something significant. I've known several instances of people who went on to become staunch activists having their first meeting with people from the same town at the bookfair. Always a good piss up and chance to meet people but genuinely important in terms of getting stuff done. Lots of campaigns and groups were launched at the bookfair or made connections with other groups. Not all of them thrived but many did.
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