London Anarchist bookfair 2020

[belboid]

Wow. “wholly acceptable to all but the most vicious terfs”. In what way are we being “weak as fuck” on trans rights?

well, you clearly had a clue the original ACG statemwnt on trans rights was somewhat lacking as you updated it after eighteen months.

It says you oppose trans oppression, who doesnt (except for the most vicious terfs)?

Then we get to the a paragraph that is almost literally a seat fitted fence:

The particular relationship between trans women and women who are born female and socialised as women has been fraught and has resulted in extreme polarisation, making it very difficult to unite against patriarchy, gender oppression and capitalism. Sensitivity and understanding of the oppression that different groups experience – females socialised as women, trans women, trans men, and non-binary – is needed in order to move forward.

Which actually says absolutely nothing about to how to resolve those differences, which makes it just a vague platitude. ffs you can't even bring yourself to use the word cis.

 

[danny la rouge]

well, you clearly had a clue the original ACG statemwnt on trans rights was somewhat lacking as you updated it after eighteen months.

It says you oppose trans oppression, who doesnt (except for the most vicious terfs)?

Then we get to the a paragraph that is almost literally a seat fitted fence:

The particular relationship between trans women and women who are born female and socialised as women has been fraught and has resulted in extreme polarisation, making it very difficult to unite against patriarchy, gender oppression and capitalism. Sensitivity and understanding of the oppression that different groups experience – females socialised as women, trans women, trans men, and non-binary – is needed in order to move forward.

Which actually says absolutely nothing about to how to resolve those differences, which makes it just a vague platitude. ffs you can't even bring yourself to use the word cis.

Ah. Transphobia = “not saying cis enough”. Got you now.

Good to know.

 

[belboid]

belboid I’m deluded enough to need it pointed out to me where the statements are “weak as fuck” and acceptable to all but the “most vicious terfs”.

They’re both here:

Statements - Anarchist Communist Group

The following are statements by the Anarchist Communist Group since its formation in February 2018, 8 April 2021 (this statement supersedes the earlier statement of 11 August 2019) Trans Rights Statement We, the ACG, reaffirm our support for trans and non-binary people. We...

www.anarchistcommunism.org

The paragraph added to the new statement is an improvement. But it still fence sits on the key questions of the debates - whether you accept that trans women are women, and over self id. So you're left with nothing but vague generalities.

 

[Serge Forward]

Jesus, belboid, you're really showing yourself up with the 'one true path', 'my way or the highway' ideologue ranting.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

In the political tradition I come from*, updating your positions based on discussion and reflection is a good thing.

(*Ultra-Armchair-Fozzieism)

 

[belboid]

Ah. Transphobia = “not saying cis enough”. Got you now.

Good to know.

yeah, just ignore everything else, like you normally do.

God I hate liberals

 

[danny la rouge]

it still fence sits on the key questions of the debates - whether you accept that trans women are women

No it doesn’t.

 

[danny la rouge]

yeah, just ignore everything else, like you normally do.

God I hate liberals

Jesus.

 

[Pickman's model]

Fozzie Bear you differ significantly from comfy-armchair-pickmansism where we reflect first and then discuss

 

[Serge Forward]

God I hate liberals

Looks at watch... I'm expecting you to call us "social fascists" in a post coming soon...

 

[Sue]

Can't be long before you get called a bourgeois dilettante.

Looks at watch... I'm expecting you to call us "social fascists" in a post coming soon...

I'm holding out for 'capitalist running dogs'.

 

[belboid]

Jesus, belboid, you're really showing yourself up with the 'one true path', 'my way or the highway' ideologue ranting.

lol, fudge is quite tasty, but it doesn't really provide for a nourishing meal.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm holding out for 'capitalist running dogs'.

Lickspittles of the bourgeoisie

 

[belboid]

Looks at watch... I'm expecting you to call us "social fascists" in a post coming soon...

I'm holding out for 'capitalist running dogs'.

why would i say that, this is pure middle of the road liberalism.

 

[Serge Forward]

You're a living parody belboid.

 

[Sue]

why would i say that, this is pure middle of the road liberalism.

They clearly need to up their running dog game.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

The particular relationship between trans women and women who are born female and socialised as women has been fraught and has resulted in extreme polarisation, making it very difficult to unite against patriarchy, gender oppression and capitalism. Sensitivity and understanding of the oppression that different groups experience – females socialised as women, trans women, trans men, and non-binary – is needed in order to move forward.

Which actually says absolutely nothing about to how to resolve those differences, which makes it just a vague platitude. ffs you can't even bring yourself to use the word cis.

How should people resolve those differences, belboid (aside from "Sensitivity and understanding of the oppression that different groups experience" which I am unclear if you agree or disagree with?)

 

[belboid]

No it doesn’t.

that is a plain lie. Neither statement mentions anything on those two questions. You may think they're implied, but they certainly aren't stated.

 

[Pickman's model]

How should people resolve those differences, belboid (aside from "Sensitivity and understanding of the oppression that different groups experience" which I am unclear if you agree or disagree with?)

I wouldn't be surprised if he agrees with John major that we should condemn a little more and understand a little less

 

[Serge Forward]

How should people resolve those differences, belboid (aside from "Sensitivity and understanding of the oppression that different groups experience" which I am unclear if you agree or disagree with?)

Sensitivity and understanding is liberalism, dontcha know.

 

[belboid]

How should people resolve those differences, belboid (aside from "Sensitivity and understanding of the oppression that different groups experience" which I am unclear if you agree or disagree with?)

well, at some point, you'll have to take a decision on who you agree with. The ones who want to exclude trans people from womens spaces, or the ones who want them to be included. Pretending that you can do otherwise is just dishonest. And you need to show active solidarity with who you support, you know putting theory into practice.

Sensitivity and understanding is great, as long as it doesnt stop you from taking action.

 

[chilango]

It's easy to get caught in the middle of the road when there's people speeding by on bandwagons shouting.

 

[Athos]

well, at some point, you'll have to take a decision on who you agree with. The ones who want to exclude trans people from womens spaces, or the ones who want them to be included. Pretending that you can do otherwise is just dishonest. And you need to show active solidarity with who you support, you know putting theory into practice.

Sensitivity and understanding is great, as long as it doesnt stop you from taking action.

Genuine question: are you an absolutist in this issue i.e. there are no circumstances whatsoever in which it might be right to restrict access to cis women only?

 

[belboid]

Genuine question: are you an absolutist in this issue i.e. there are no circumstances whatsoever in which it might be right to restrict access to cis women only?

you have never asked a 'genuine question' on this subject in your life.

 

[Athos]

you have never asked a 'genuine question' on this subject in your life.

That's untrue. But the question stands... so?

 

[andysays]

Are you really that naive/deluded?

I am referring to the ACG rather than danny specifically, but the argument still holds.

It is easy to see where the accusation of being soft on terf's comes from - its from that letter Edinburgh AF signed post the last bookfair. Its been followed up by a weak as fuck statement on trans rights, which was then updated a bit to be improved, but still wholly acceptable to all but the most vicious terfs.

Just cos danny and the other ACGers are generally nice and sound people doesn't mean they get a pass for espousing lousy liberal politics.

OK, I tried to include a bit of room in my previous post for the possibility that I might have misunderstood, but it appears I understood you perfectly.

There's no real argument from you here, or in your various subsequent posts.

Like a true dogmatist, you're apparently so convinced of your position and of the utter wrongness of everyone else that you don't even bother with anything resembling coherent argument and instead rely solely on insult and shit flinging.

 

[Pickman's model]

you have never asked a 'genuine question' on this subject in your life.

Yeh we all know the opening credits of the Athos show

 

[Serge Forward]

What passes for an anarchist "movement" and sections of "the left" in this country and elsewhere has torn itself apart because of trans-exclusionary types on the one hand and "everyone who doesn't agree 100% with us is a TERF/fascist". Both sides are wankers. I think a call for dialogue and level of understanding is the only way through this... that, or just ignore both sets of wankers. Meanwhile belboid, you want to pick your side, good luck with it.

 

[andysays]

In the political tradition I come from*, updating your positions based on discussion and reflection is a good thing.

(*Ultra-Armchair-Fozzieism)

Fozzie Bear you differ significantly from comfy-armchair-pickmansism where we reflect first and then discuss

You're both doing it wrong, BTW.

You need to unify both elements of the false binary and be able to reflect and discuss simultaneously, whatever sort of chair you're sitting in/on, or even if you're standing.

 

[belboid]

What passes for an anarchist "movement" and sections of "the left" in this country and elsewhere has torn itself apart because of trans-exclusionary types on the one hand and "everyone who doesn't agree 100% with us is a TERF/fascist". Both sides are wankers. I think a call for dialogue and level of understanding is the only way through this... that, or just ignore both sets of wankers. Meanwhile belboid, you want to pick your side, good luck with it.

But that is the game you’re playing. And you don’t get out of it by not stating your position.

‘Ooh, all this division is bad’ isn’t an argument. It isn’t nuanced or balanced, it’s just… nothing.