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That, I accept, is entirely fair enough. I do get incredibly impatient with people, tho have always tried to rein it in when talking with women or trans people, on this subject in particular. Most of the time I'm not angry, I am honestly shocked and surprised at some of the excuses being trotted out to excuse vacuity. And by the refusal to engage at all beyond an 'oh yes it is/oh no it isn't level.' On the occasions when people have actually tried to raise the issues involved, I'll reply politely. I wont when people are completely disingenuous or just go 'yes/no'.

I just don't see why the ACG can't say whether they do or don't believe that trans women are women and trans men are men. Avoiding saying so, refusing to clarify, is always going to be seen as fence sitting or a cover for whichever position you want to accuse them of. Refusing to have a position isn't really a rejection of the whole question, it just accepts the status quo. And, by saying it, you are offering trans people solidarity not just sympathy and sensitivity.
That's laughably reductive. Lots of people belive that trans women are women, but that there are legitimate reasons to limit some spaces to cis women. On that issue, what do you think? That it can be legitimate, or that it never can?
 
I agree with you about the purity spiralling, in terms of the last couple of pages on this thread, as part of the 'stall' story and what has gone on in the wider left. Same time, I'm unsure why you regard the ACG in general and Danny in particular as "happy to throw the insult of 'bigot' or 'transphobe' at any one, including those with a long history in left wing liberationist sexual politics then you can't cry when its thrown at you". I'm confused, so that is as they say 'a genuine question'.

To be fair I don't remember DLR being one of the big pitchfork wielders when GC feminism was being denounced as social fascism or whatever genderists want it to be but he has been patronising and sneering for the past week or two at Scottish women's campaign to oppose the GRA in Scotland so it's reasonably clear what he thinks.

But maybe I should withdraw that allegation since I cannot remember danny la rouge actually saying it. But maybe DLR could confirm whether he thinks I'm a "transphobe"? And quote a post to justify it?


TBH I don't keep a record and the TRAs were so happy to collectively use this tactic and collectively hide behind it that anyone who has been onside suddenly getting thrown to the wolves is like - yep! - that's what happens, and is what is going to happen to a whole lot more of you unless you chant louder, prioritise more, condemn more etc etc. Basically unless you swallow everything 100%, and talk about nothing else, you are borderline a "transphobe"
 
It's more to do with why they are refusing to, not just within the statement explicitly on trans rights, but in the ongoing discussion in general.

If a political group is releasing a statement on trans rights I dont think it is unreasonable to state what they believe about one of the key central concerns of the whole discussion. It's the debate boiled down to its essence, if you like. If the actual practical issues aren't addressed, it's all ever only going to abstract chatter. Which is fine if you're on a philosophy course, but not if you are political organisation.

And it is seen as an act of solidarity (whichever way it is stated) and, I say again, I go for solidarity not just sympathy.

I don't think refusing to say, or disagreeing with or needing to qualify, the statement that 'trans-women are women' necessarily makes you a transphobe though, maybe that's where we differ.
 
I don't think refusing to say, or disagreeing with or needing to qualify, the statement that 'trans-women are women' necessarily makes you a transphobe though, maybe that's where we differ.

Disagreeing with the statement "transwomen are women" is absolutely "transphobic". It's like the Ur transphobia, the Original Sin. Women are made from men, don't you remember the Bible?
 
I don't think refusing to say, or disagreeing with or needing to qualify, the statement that 'trans-women are women' necessarily makes you a transphobe though, maybe that's where we differ.
I think refusing to agree or disagree (or at least to reduce the whole discussion to agreeing or disagreeing) with such a simplistic and ultimately polarising statement is actually quite a sensible position to take, assuming you're interested in reaching a position which might have a chance of achieving some broadish agreement rather than just pleasing the dogmatic extremists on one side or the other.
 
I don't think refusing to say, or disagreeing with or needing to qualify, the statement that 'trans-women are women' necessarily makes you a transphobe though, maybe that's where we differ.
I haven't called anyone a transphobe. I have said I understand why they are seen as soft on transphobes - which is down to the refusal to state a position. And I initially made the point in reaction to co-ops posting which accuses the ACG of calling other people transphopbes - which is, again, due to the refusal to take a position. To rephrase my original sentence, standing in the middle of a battlefield leaves you liable to being shot by both sides.
 
I think refusing to agree or disagree (or at least to reduce the whole discussion to agreeing or disagreeing) with such a simplistic and ultimately polarising statement is actually quite a sensible position to take, assuming you're interested in reaching a position which might have a chance of achieving some broadish agreement rather than just pleasing the dogmatic extremists on one side or the other.
This was the position of Militant/Socialist Party in the six counties - just dont mention the border and lets unite about everything else. Didn't really work when so much came back to the border in one way or another. Effectively, it just accepted the status quo.
 
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I haven't called anyone a transphobe. I have said I understand why they are seen as soft on transphobes - which is down to the refusal to state a position. And I initially made the point in reaction to co-ops posting which accuses the ACG of calling other people transphopbes - which is, again, due to the refusal to take a position. To rephrase my original sentence, standing in the middle of a battlefield leaves you liable to being shot by both sides.
This is you worming your way into the heart of the crowd, is it?
 
I think refusing to agree or disagree (or at least to reduce the whole discussion to agreeing or disagreeing) with such a simplistic and ultimately polarising statement is actually quite a sensible position to take, assuming you're interested in reaching a position which might have a chance of achieving some broadish agreement rather than just pleasing the dogmatic extremists on one side or the other.
Isn't the point that you could agree or disagree with the statement and this not necessarily be the absolute be-all and end-all definition-issue of your politics? It's clear what I think (I think trans women are not women in case anyone is unaware of the history) but I have no problem thinking that people who disagree with me on this are not bigots, not necessarily misogynists etc.

But from the "tw are w" crew this is completely fanatical black and white; any deviation - the merest hint of deviation - and you are utter bigoted scum and there is no other way of looking at the issue. hence my amusement at watching the ACG getting in the sights of these fanatics; they're right - the ACG is equivocating. By the standards of the time they are transphobes. Those are the rules.

Btw for all that belboid is a purity-spiraller of the first order he's right that sitting on the fence means de facto rejection of the "tw are w" claim.
 
I just don't see why the ACG can't say whether they do or don't believe that trans women are women and trans men are men.
I’d never even heard of the ACG before a few weeks ago, let alone be now in a position to claim to speak for them. But for myself, I would say: give me your definition of a woman and from that I will be able to say whether trans women are women. Because I personally don’t have a well-defined, coherent fixed definition that I can use to give you a black-and-white response to that black-and-white question. To me, there is only a reason to define a category if you have a purpose for doing so, and the purpose determines the definition. There are different purposes for defining the category ”woman” and those different purposes will lead to slightly different results.

ETA: the point is that the label is the least important and least interesting thing. Certainly, it’s the thing I care least about and give least thought to. It comes right at the end, after everything else.
 
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I’d never even heard of the ACG before a few weeks ago, let alone be now in a position to claim to speak for them. But for myself, I would say: give me your definition of a woman and from that I will be able to say whether trans women are women. Because I personally don’t have a well-defined, coherent fixed definition that I can use to give you a black-and-white response to that black-and-white question. To me, there is only a reason to define a category if you have a purpose for doing so, and the purpose determines the definition. There are different purposes for defining the category ”woman” and those different purposes will lead to slightly different results.
I would agree with that, to a large extent. 'It's complicated' will never really satisfy anyone, and requires at least an essay to explain in any detail, but it is a position and at the minimum rejects the 'trans women can never be women' claim.

More importantly, a political group is defined by how its puts theory into practise, so if you want to start from such a position, you need to show what its practical implications are. I think it is fairly clear that in the current climate it would be a statement about the legal rights of trans women to access support and services, to have the same legal safeguards against discrimination as cis women.
 
It is easy to see where the accusation of being soft on terf's comes from - its from that letter Edinburgh AF signed post the last bookfair.
With my pedantic proofreader's hat on here, do you actually mean the Edinburgh AF statement, or do you mean what became the ACG founding statement, the "class struggle anarchist" one that was kind of a rejection of the Edinburgh one?
You can make many different types of statement about the trans wars. However, one thing that makes no sense at all is to label the varied parts of it (from hard left to hard right) that reject the uncritical acceptance of trans identities (for whatever reason) as “liberal”. It’s the very opposite of liberal. Liberal means that you take the isolated individual as primary, and their opinion as sovereign regarding their position and role in the world. The only reasonable liberal stance is the uncritical acceptance that if a person says they are a woman, that means they are a woman.
Don't think this is a helpful contribution, I don't think liberals are any more united on this issue than any other political category.
who’d have thunk that an ‘anarchist communist’ organisation would see their role as being a conciliator rather than a fighting force. Hey ho
Is this really your first encounter with the ultra-left? You'll be proper shocked when you hear what anarchist communists think about wars between nations.
It's more to do with why they are refusing to, not just within the statement explicitly on trans rights, but in the ongoing discussion in general.

If a political group is releasing a statement on trans rights I dont think it is unreasonable to state what they believe about one of the key central concerns of the whole discussion. It's the debate boiled down to its essence, if you like. If the actual practical issues aren't addressed, it's all ever only going to abstract chatter.
See, it would never have occurred to me to criticise the ACG statement for not including "trans women are women" in it, cos that to me does seem like a fairly abstract slogan that's perfectly compatible with defending transphobia in practice. Like, I think the ACG's politics on this could be better but I don't really think that's cos there's anything wrong with the statement itself, more that they need to move beyond just having a statement and incorporate it into their practice a bit more. For instance, SolFed have been flyering Pride with trans healthcare know your rights stuff - that to me is moving to address actual practical issues, in a way that just saying "trans women are women" isn't.
This was the position of Militant/Socialist Party in the six counties - just dont mention the border and lets unite about everything else. Didn't really work when so much came back to the border in one way or another. Effectively, it just accepted the status quo.
I had actually been thinking about NI in relation to trans stuff as well recently, in particular cos of reading this, which I thought was really decent: Workers in Northern Ireland - Angry Workers Would you also see that as being fence-sitting acceptance of the status quo?
 
That's laughably reductive. Lots of people belive that trans women are women, but that there are legitimate reasons to limit some spaces to cis women. On that issue, what do you think? That it can be legitimate, or that it never can?
Ffs stop asking difficult questions.
 
But maybe I should withdraw that allegation since I cannot remember @danny la rouge actually saying it. But maybe DLR could confirm whether he thinks I'm a "transphobe"? And quote a post to justify it?
Please don’t take this amiss, but I’m afraid I have no idea what your opinion on anything is. I assume you like co-ops.
 
With my pedantic proofreader's hat on here, do you actually mean the Edinburgh AF statement, or do you mean what became the ACG founding statement, the "class struggle anarchist" one that was kind of a rejection of the Edinburgh one?
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i suspect so, and your correction explains why i couldnt find said statement
Is this really your first encounter with the ultra-left? You'll be proper shocked when you hear what anarchist communists think about wars between nations.
I can easily understand 'turn nation war into class war' - it makes clear sense and I can see how it can work out in practise. How does that work in this case? Beyond saying we dont care about seats on company boards, I dont see how it practically applies in any of the situations that the terf/trans argument raises. [well, I can, but only in a way that anyone else would say 'well, he would say that, wouldnt he?' way, so there's no point.]
See, it would never have occurred to me to criticise the ACG statement for not including "trans women are women" in it, cos that to me does seem like a fairly abstract slogan that's perfectly compatible with defending transphobia in practice. Like, I think the ACG's politics on this could be better but I don't really think that's cos there's anything wrong with the statement itself, more that they need to move beyond just having a statement and incorporate it into their practice a bit more. For instance, SolFed have been flyering Pride with trans healthcare know your rights stuff - that to me is moving to address actual practical issues, in a way that just saying "trans women are women" isn't.
It is symbolic, absolutely. But symbols are important (as long as they're not a simple substitute for practical action), This is why, I presume, that Solfed twitter feed says, above the post you posted, that they'll be proudly flying the trans solidarity flag. It's akin to the need to say you need to show sensitivity; it's not enough, but it's a good starting point.

We could also get into the whole question of issuing 'statements.' They'll always be a hostage to fortune and I'd think they were generally best avoided unless you want to be absolutely adamant about particular issues. They should be either a symbolic act of solidarity or a general guide to action, imo. And then followed up with examples of that action.
I had actually been thinking about NI in relation to trans stuff as well recently, in particular cos of reading this, which I thought was really decent: Workers in Northern Ireland - Angry Workers Would you also see that as being fence-sitting acceptance of the status quo?
It's a really good piece of journalism. I am somewhat dubious about the claim that catholics dont really face much discrimination any more, but dont know enough to say its wrong. Some of the maths is dodgy af too (103% of the private economy is apparently based in three sectors) The real issue lies with the final section. At the moment, they can probably get away with saying raising a border poll now would just be a splitting tactic. But it isnt true that such a poll is an entirely ruling class idea. The Irish state is explicitly not raising it, the leadership of the political class of the nationalists aren't even raising it significantly. When it does get raised, its from ordinary folk, frmo below.

The movement for irish unity is definitely not just a ruling class movement. When the (mainly catholic) workers start demanding a poll, arguing its just a bourgeois distraction wont cut it and I suspect they'd start losing their audience (this is, again based on what happened with Militant/SP).

I am very tempted to go on and describe just why I think NI is a good analogy for the questions around trans rights (essentially 'competing' interests among the working-class, where we should be 'on one side' but without saying all the other side are scum), but despite all appearances I really dont want to get into an argument about 'trans rights' per se. It's the obfuscation that really bugs me. If you got nothing to say, ffs, say nothing.
 
(I think trans women are not women in case anyone is unaware of the history)
OK. I was unaware of this history. I would need to hear more about your reasons for that before coming to an opinion about whether your position is transphobic.

I do think trans women are women. I also think that trans women have particular experiences and face particular oppressions that are different from other women. And vice versa.

As for the “Women Won’t Wheesht” brigade, my criticism of them is not that they oppose the GRA (I’m not well enough versed on the GRA to engage with them on that). My criticism is that they’re all over Twitter saying trans women are paedophiles, “just in it for the kink”, and that there is a big conspiracy involving Nicola Sturgeon to allow fake trans women improper access to children. That is - you’ll be unsurprised to learn - very much transphobic in my view. As well as deranged. They seem completely obsessed.

My bet is that for most people that discourse is utterly alienating. Most people probably don’t place the issue of whether trans women are women very high on their list of priorities. They probably think “if that’s how they feel, then sure”, then get on with their lives. Obviously it’s a far bigger issue for trans women themselves. I’m just making a guess about the average non politico in the street.

Do you mind me asking: are you an anarchist? Because if you’re not, then seeking this thread out to ask me whether I think your view is transphobic does kind of suggest to me that you may need to balance your priorities a bit better yourself.
 
All sorts of women have "particular experiences and face particular oppressions that are different from other women".

For example a woman may or may not be disabled, working class, BAME, LGBTQ*, intersex, older, younger, trans, cis, homeless, unemployed, living with chronic illness, etc etc, etc, etc.

None of it has any bearing on whether or not she is a woman.
 
All sorts of women have "particular experiences and face particular oppressions that are different from other women".

For example a woman may or may not be disabled, working class, BAME, LGBTQ*, intersex, older, younger, trans, cis, homeless, unemployed, living with chronic illness, etc etc.

None of it has any bearing on whether or not she is a woman.
Correct.
 
All sorts of women have "particular experiences and face particular oppressions that are different from other women".

For example a woman may or may not be disabled, working class, BAME, LGBTQ*, intersex, older, younger, trans, cis, homeless, unemployed, living with chronic illness, etc etc, etc, etc.

None of it has any bearing on whether or not she is a woman.

Surely by that logic you could extend it to all people irrespective of sex or gender, and say there's so much difference and variation between individuals that no specific categories hold? Or am I missing what you're saying?
 
It’s interesting that people rarely ask whether trans men are men. (For the avoidance of doubt: in my opinion, yes).
The reason for that should be fairly obvious. Women, many women, regard men as a potential threat. This is a generality, but it holds good much of the time. Men on the other hand do not see women as being a threat, generally speaking. So there is a level of fear and/or distrust which affects any discourse on the subject, arising from lived experiences.

Rape crisis centres usually exclude men, not because all men are evil, but because some men will be a threat and it is not possible to tell which ones. This has historically caused problems when it comes to e.g. teenage sons. No easy solutions. No perfect solutions.
 
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