ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Beyond satire.
It is satire. Says so in the comments part of the link.
"Many a true word spoken in jest" will probably apply sooner rather than later, though.
List of those for whom Welfare Reform and cuts were too much to bear
- Thread starter Frankie Jack
- Start date
It is satire. Says so in the comments part of the link.
"Many a true word spoken in jest" will probably apply sooner rather than later, though.
Oops! Still catching up with myself so didn't bother checking the link.It is satire isn't it? It's not real
Start another thread for that please.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Well there are many aspects to that question. Expectations, consumer culture, control over what is considered to be legitimate economic activity, the industrial revolution and subsequent abandonment of such economic activity in some communities. Land ownership and control, the cost of living, fuel subsidies, the war on drugs, mechanisation, education, urbanisation. How to even begin a comparison on equal terms is therefore a problem.
edit - I agree that another thread would be a better idea.
edit - I agree that another thread would be a better idea.
I won't, but I can understand the request.
Minnie_the_Minx
someinenhhanding menbag and me ah bollox
You mean countries like India, Philippines, and lots of other countries where it's probably a lot more bearable to sleep on the streets at nighttime than it is on cold UK streets?
BTW: I realise there's homeless or skint people in cold countries as well, just before you decide to point that out to me
As I understand it, the majority of the examples being cited here did not sleep in cold UK streets at night time.
Minnie_the_Minx
someinenhhanding menbag and me ah bollox
ah right, but a lot of them have paid taxes and some of them for a long time, with the understanding that they wouldn't be chucked onto the streets when things got tough.
Does it work that way in other countries?
No, in those countries which meet the needs of the less able by ways other than through a system of agents funded by taxation. Which seems to offer a partial explanation for my question.
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
They do this by letting the poor die in the street.
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
You just don't want to help others with your tax cos you are a cunt.
Minnie_the_Minx
someinenhhanding menbag and me ah bollox
Would you like us all to go scavenging on landfill and collecting plastic that we can sell for pennies so we can feed ourselves?
You realise poor people like this are probably not paying taxes don't you?
Are you arguing that all people who are poor and not protected by a welfare state scavenge on landfill sites and collect plastic so they can feed themselves? Or are you deploying an argument that there are some people who are poor and not protected by a welfare state scavenge on landfill sites and collect plastic so they can feed themselves as justification for a welfare state?
How do you account for the the majority who's life circumstances are considerably less favourable than the poorest in our society that neither require a welfare state, nor scavenge on landfill sites and collect plastic so they can feed themselves?
Minnie_the_Minx
someinenhhanding menbag and me ah bollox
Course not, just giving examples.
Can't be arsed to argue as I'm not very articulate or good at explaining myself
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
They do dangerous and unhealthy jobs, get sick and die on the street.
Where would you rather take your chances? Iceland or India?
[snip] I have been directed to pursue that enquiry in a different thread, and I have to respect that.
So why the fuck didn't you?
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
It is an answer. You seem to think we would be better off without a welfare state. This is patently phooey.
If you stop welfare, people will die. Do you want that?
If you stop welfare, people will die. Do you want that?
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
It is not 'some' people. In India, if you are poor and old, you get nothing and have to beg on the street or work til you drop. Do more people give alms in India? Of course. Is it a better system than a tax for all that helps pay for pensions, welfare and NHS? Is it fuck.
The argument that a welfare state (as currently constituted) might have certain defects, and an argument that we would be better of without a welfare state, are different. You are wrong to confuse them, and I certainly haven't.
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
Is it acceptable for anyone to become destitute or die because of there is no welfare state to help them?
[snip]
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
It's clear what member refers to in your tagline, more like 'tool' than 'part of a group or team'.
you mention mental health issues. Have you stopped to think that these issues might hsve been a symptom of the position these unfortunate people found themselves in, and not its cause? I wonder what you'd be like if you were strapped for cash on benefits and then the money was taken away. Perhaps we'll find out, eh.
BigTom
Well-Known Member
It's not just about suicides, it's also about disabled people who have died of their condition shortly after being declared fit for work.
If you wish to discuss this aspect there is another thread which Teuchter started titled something like "dodgy atos statistics" where there is some discussion about how /whether we can identify an increased death rate attributable to esa.
Minnie_the_Minx
someinenhhanding menbag and me ah bollox
Not entirely. It may be that they've committed suicide because they're depressed because they're being hounded and hounded left, right and centre and being made to feel like fraudsters and worthless
eta: I see that's already been said but in a better and more articulate way
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
First, let's unpick what "welfare" is, because it means different things in different settings and contexts.
You, it appears, are referring to STATE welfare paid to individuals, mostly paid for through taxation and pooled risk insurance schemes (private and public). In other societies welfare can mean anything from private co-operative welfare arrangements to classic "extended family" self-organised assistance.
It may well be.
It also might well be that without "the welfare system" people would be less happy than they are, and more prone to, variously, life-compromising illness, nutrition-related disorders and suicide.
Care to make a case for predisposition that doesn't borrow too heavily from the work of others?
Frumious B.
Well-Known Member
I wish this thread hadn't been derailed by an ignorant fool making fatuous remarks. Perhaps he/she/it could start another thread called "Survival of the fittest: how helping the weak dilutes the gene pool."
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Then I will. This isn't a thread for this kind of debate, as you'd know if you'd paid any attention to the thread title.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
I've posted Falcon's question on a new thread. I know he gets a hard-on doing his "libertarian" (yeah, right!) schtick, but he shouldn't do so on what is basically a memorial thread.
[snip]
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