Libya - civil unrest & now NATO involvement

[elbows]

I've no idea why google isnt helping you as it was widely reported news, and the act was repeated in other countries such a Egypt. Why dont you read the first few pages of the Tunisia thread on U75 and you will see it mentioned several times with some detail.

 

[classicdish]

I have been hearing that the first uprising in Tunisia was especially sparked into life when someone publicly self immolated in protest at conditions.

I have been googling around it but cannot find out much more, does anyone know about that?

From the Tunisia thread: http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/threads/340684-Tunisia-working-class-revolt

"...a distraught and unemployed young university graduate, Mohammed Bouazizi, sat down in front of the town hall in the central Tunisian town of Sidi Bouzid, poured gasoline on himself and lit a match. Bouazizi’s act of self-immolation and protest against Tunisia’s high unemployment, rampant corruption and decades of repression by the government of Zine Ben Ali triggered a protest movement, first in the country’s center and south, but now virtually everywhere, including the capital, Tunis..."

 

[elbows]

From the BBC:

2315: Mathew from London writes: "I have just spoken to my girlfriend who is outside Tripoli airport with other British nationals and staff from the British Council. They had been promised seats on today's UK chartered flights yet she reports that they have been refused entry to the airport, have been waiting in the rain and hail and have been without food, blankets or first aid. Young children are present and can be heard crying the background. Some Britons have had to leave on flights to Warsaw

Will William Hague fall before Gaddafi does?

 

[weltweit]

I've no idea why google isnt helping you as it was widely reported news, and the act was repeated in other countries such a Egypt. Why dont you read the first few pages of the Tunisia thread on U75 and you will see it mentioned several times with some detail.

Oh, thanks and classicdish, I didn't think to look at the thread on here.

 

[weltweit]

Will William Hague fall before Gaddafi does?

I have been hearing all day from people saying the FCO was just not answering their telephones etc and being about as useful as a chocolate teapot.

The Turks have evacuated thousands by plane from Tripoli and boat from Benghazi.

 

[elbows]

Oh, thanks and classicdish, I didn't think to look at the thread on here.

You've made Gaddafi angry now, he told us all yesterday that Libya isnt Tunisia or Egypt yet you post about this stuff in the Libya thread. Dont dare post on this forum again until you have read his green book while poking yourself in the eye with a sharp stick.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

False choice. Calling for western intervention is one thing (because yeah it worked so well in Iraq didn't it? 5 MILLION DEAD!) calling for solidarity, particularly from the masses in neighbouring Arab states is another. Egyptian and Tunisian revolutionaries should (and are) organising international brigades and humanitarian convoys to offer assistance as brothers and sisters in arms, as fellow revolutionaries.

The bottom line however is these revolutions must be the actions of the peoples of these countries because it is in their actions that the essentially democratic nature of these uprisings is realised. It is not done for them, it is not imposed. It is an example of self determination.

is there evidence for this taking place? i have heard about gadaffi using mercenaries but i have wondered whether there is now some wider example of some real roaming revolutionary revelation going on.

 

[quimcunx]

bencnn benwedeman
Ad-hoc government in Benghazi in contact with Qaddafi's tribe, telling them they are opposed to his rule, not his tribe. #Libya
34 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

 

[dylans]

From the Tunisia thread: http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/threads/340684-Tunisia-working-class-revolt

"...a distraught and unemployed young university graduate, Mohammed Bouazizi, sat down in front of the town hall in the central Tunisian town of Sidi Bouzid, poured gasoline on himself and lit a match. Bouazizi’s act of self-immolation and protest against Tunisia’s high unemployment, rampant corruption and decades of repression by the government of Zine Ben Ali triggered a protest movement, first in the country’s center and south, but now virtually everywhere, including the capital, Tunis..."

That's actually wrong and his "transformation" into a university graduate has been cited as an example of the way simplistic "facebook revolution" narratives have been placed onto events. He wasn't a university graduate at all. He was a poor vendor who was humiliated and abused by police who "confiscated his goods and slapped his face. When his attempts to seek recourse by demanding a meeting with an official were ignored, he immolated himself

Mohamed Bouazizi was 10 years old when he became the main provider for his family, selling fresh produce in the local market. He stayed in high school long enough to sit his baccalaureate exam, but did not graduate. (He never attended university, contrary to what many news organisations have reported).

Bouazizi's father died when he was three years old. His elder brother lives away from the family, in Sfax. Though his mother remarried, her second husband suffers from poor health and is unable to find regular work.

"He didn't expect to study, because we didn't have the money," his mother said.

At age of 19, Mohamed halted his studies in order to work fulltime, to help offer his five younger siblings the chance to stay in school.

"My sister was the one in university and he would pay for her," Samya Bouazizi, one of his sisters, said. "And I am still a student and he would spend money on me."

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/features/2011/01/201111684242518839.html

 

[weltweit]

You've made Gaddafi angry now, he told us all yesterday that Libya isnt Tunisia or Egypt yet you post about this stuff in the Libya thread. Dont dare post on this forum again until you have read his green book while poking yourself in the eye with a sharp stick.

As it happens, if I had a copy of the green book now I would read it - -

 

[dylans]

is there evidence for this taking place? i have heard about gadaffi using mercenaries but i have wondered whether there is now some wider example of some real roaming revolutionary revelation going on.

There have been medical and humanitarian aid convoys but not military

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

i have read his green book as it happens, found it in a squat on graham road in 1989.

poll tax riots happened a year later.

rubbish book mind.

 

[dylans]

As it happens, if I had a copy of the green book now I would read it - -

I read it years ago. It has some bizarre stuff in it. Lots of stuff about horses. I remember one bit going on about how spectator sport is bad for the soul.

Here's a snippet

Sport is a public activity which must be practised rather than watched. This is more reasonable as an alternative than the present costum of a helpless apathetic majority that merely watches.

Grandstands will disappear because no one will be there to occupy them. Those who are unable to perform the roles of heroism in life, who are ignorant of the events of history; who fall short of envisaging the future, and who are not serious enough in their own lives, are the trivial people who fill the seats of the theatres and cinemas to watch the events of life in order to learn their course. They are like pupils who occupy school desks because they are uneducated and also initially illiterate.

Those who direct the course of life for themselves have no need to watch life working through actors on the stage or in the cinema. Horsemen who hold the reins of their horses likewise have no seat in the grandstands at the race course. If every person has a horse, no one will be there to watch and applaud. The sitting spectators are only those who are too helpless to perform this kind of activity because they are not horsemen.

http://www.hoffstrizz.com/2010/05/gaddafis-green-book.html

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

There have been medical and humanitarian aid convoys but not military

ah, i see.

 

[elbows]

That's actually wrong and his "transformation" into a university graduate has been cited as an example of the way simplistic "facebook revolution" narratives have been placed onto events.

I dont think this is a great example of the facebook narrative, for the simplified internet-focussed version of events tends to ignore the self-immolations completely.

But yes, your wider point still stand up. Although there is a flipside that some would like to overlook the role the middle class played in the Egyptian protests.

 

[elbows]

There have been medical and humanitarian aid convoys but not military

So why were you throwing terms like 'brothers and sisters in arms' and 'brigades' around?

 

[Fedayn]

3arabawy
Workers in the Libyan Revolution
Workers in Benghazi power plant refused Tripoli's orders to cut electricity to city. Power supply now more reliable than before. #Libya18 minutes ago via webbencnnbenwedeman
Source: 3arabawy

 

[dylans]

So why were you throwing terms like 'brothers and sisters in arms' and 'brigades' around?

Because it is not happening now doesn't mean that it won't at some point. This is an ongoing process.

 

[weltweit]

I dont think this is a great example of the facebook narrative, for the simplified internet-focussed version of events tends to ignore the self-immolations completely.

I can still remember as a teenager seeing a photo of a buddist monk immolating himself. I did not know what to feel, that someone had chosen such an end for themselves was simply beyond my comprehension. In many ways it still is.

 

[elbows]

The recent stories from the usual tweeters tonight appears to focus on more and more confirmation that the regime is using fear more than actual heavy weapon killing at the moment, hope its true. Eg tales that tanks have been firing into the air to scare people, that gunfire in Tripoli is keeping people afraid. There was even a story earlier that the regime were sometimes setting off fireworks to emulate the sound of weapons.

The other narrative is that in Tripoli the regime are forcing people to clean up bits of the city in preparation for a propaganda event with the media tomorrow, ranging from the removal of graffiti to tales of government taking away bodies in vans. Think this expectation that media propaganda event is being prepared has been around for at least a day now but is picking up again tonight.

I remain disturbed by multiple suggestions that a lot of people who spoke to Al-Jazeera or other media, spoke to people outside the country via phone or internet, have gone missing. Before these events unfolded Libya was a country which didnt overtly censor the internet, but rather used it to monitor people.

Gadaffi may have lost control of much of Libya but as I said a day or 2 ago, he appears to have maintained the fear factor in places like Tripoli quite well by a variety of means. Some think that the regime have ben spreading scary stories via phonecalls to the media and the internet, although to be honest I think some Libyans both within the country and outside have been unwittingly playing into that stuff too. Im not blaming them, this is what happens when bad stuff is really happening, and when information is scarce. But there is probably something to learn here for those who think they could end up with a similar situation in their own country one day.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

a tank firing into the air still means a big shell coming down dunnit?

 

[quimcunx]

WRT individual threats I heard an audio yesterday where a girl said that her friend's neighbours were attending a pro gadafi rally even though their 2 sons had been killed because of threats. Obviously can't substantiate that.

 

[weltweit]

a tank firing into the air still means a big shell coming down dunnit?

Yes, I thought that also ...

 

[elbows]

Depends where they are pointing it and what they are actually firing though.

These photos are apparently from freshly free Misurata/Misrata, though Ive clearly no way of validating this, interesting anyway:

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=25938&id=127675500637887

 

[teqniq]

3arabawy is not impressed with the idea of NATO:

read from bottom up

3arabawy Hossam عمو حسام
Those troops which have been involved in the Afghan massacres cannot be the guardians of the Libyan revolution suddenly. #NATO
12 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

3arabawy Hossam عمو حسام
To imagine having NATO troops in Libya, after watching their horrible performance in Afghanistan, is a nightmare. #Libya
13 minutes ago
»

3arabawy Hossam عمو حسام
This aerial danger is being overinflated by the Western powers to legitimize the enforcement of a no fly zone, which means NATO is in.
15 minutes ago

3arabawy Hossam عمو حسام
Which would be catastrophic. We can't have them on our borders RT @shadihamid It would b NATO that would enforce nofly zone @3arabawy #libya
21 minutes ago

3arabawy Hossam عمو حسام
Except I hope I don't c NATO RT @shadihamid: According to estimates deaths in #Libya over 2000. Model here's Bosnia/Kosovo not Egypt/Tunisia
24 minutes ago

 

[quimcunx]

This claims to be a collection of passports from mercenaries.

 

[dylans]

Depends where they are pointing it and what they are actually firing though.

These photos are apparently from freshly free Misurata/Misrata, though Ive clearly no way of validating this, interesting anyway:

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=25938&id=127675500637887

This is my point. The opposition is getting arms with every defeat of the regime. The idea that they need the "help" of NATO is suspect to say the least. They can do this themselves and are hardly "unarmed protestors facing tanks" anymore.

 

[dylans]

This claims to be a collection of passports from mercenaries.

Why would hired mercenaries need passports? Foreign workers however would.

 

[dylans]

3arabawy is not impressed with the idea of NATO:

read from bottom up

Him and me both

 

[elbows]

Why would hired mercenaries need passports? Foreign workers however would.

Well I guess they would need them to return home? But the more I see details of quite how many different nationalities were working in various parts of Libya, the more concerned I become about some of this stuff. But as we have talked about this issue a fair bit before I dont think I have much to add right now