Libya - civil unrest & now NATO involvement

[elbows]

The battles at Bani Walid and Sirte sound messy, with considerable pro-Gaddafi resistance.

Jalil has temporarily joined Jibril in Tripoli, and it looks from photos like Belhaj was right by their side.

 

[elbows]

Gaddafi loyalists killed 17 guards at the Ras Lanuf oil refinery. Saadi Gaddafi 'detained' in Niger. More fierce fighting around Bani Walid and Sirte, with some suggestion of rebels being 'intriguingly dysfunctional' on the Bani Walid front.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/09/201191217354263674.html

Still rather messy and unfinished then.

 

[Pickman's model]

these things so often are

 

[elbows]

BBC currently gives prominent place to this story which covers a multitude of developments, with a headline very much focussed on Amnesty Internationals latest report which calls on the TNC to take steps to prevent human rights abuses. The response mentioned is not encouraging:

Mohammed al-Alagi, a justice minister for Libya's transitional authorities, said that describing the rebels actions as war crimes was wrong.
"They are not the military, they are only ordinary people," Mr al-Alagi told the Associated Press news agency.
He said the rebels had made mistakes, but said these could not be described as "war crimes at all".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14891913
The article also says something different to what I posted earlier about Saadi Gaddafi, he is not detailed but is 'under surveillance'.
Here is another article which discusses the power struggle thats been going on, but since we only get to see the public face of this stuff, it remains hard to predict what will happen, whether deals will be struck.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14882094

On Sunday, Mahmoud Jibril outlined plans to put the various informal military units that have fought against Col Gaddafi under the control of the Transitional National Council.
It's a move that many see as a logical next step in transforming Libya's DIY rebellion into ajoined-up administration that can guide the country towards elections.
But, a well-placed source close to the city's top military leader, Abdel-Hakim Belhaj, told me that the prime minister was "trying to divide the nation", and said military groups "from Benghazi, Misrata, the Nafusa mountains and here in Tripoli" were demanding that Mr Jibril halt his plans and resign immediately.
"His time is up - he spent more time in Paris than Benghazi during the last seven months," said the source with evident contempt.
So are we veering towards the first major political crisis of not-quite-post-Gaddafi Libya, or is this just some rather aggressive manoeuvring in an understandably feverish - but still broadly positive - environment?

 

[dylans]

Major 107 page Amnesty report. Rumours of African mercenaries "wildly exaggerated." Rebel forces responsible for war crimes and crimes against humanity. Widespread and continuing abuse of innocent African workers and black Libyans. Half of all detainees in Tripoli and Zawiya are innocent migrant workers

The National Transitional Council (NTC) must get a grip on armed anti-Gaddafi groups to stop reprisal attacks and arbitrary arrests, Amnesty International warned today as it released a major report into human rights violations during the Libyan conflict.

The 107-page report The Battle for Libya: Killings, Disappearances and Torture reveals that while al-Gaddafi forces committed widespread crimes under international law during the conflict, forces loyal to the NTC have also committed abuses that in some cases amounted to war crimes.

Amnesty researchers have found evidence that during the conflict Gaddafi forces committed war crimes and abuses which may amount to crimes against humanity, including indiscriminate attacks, mass killing of prisoners, torture, enforced disappearances, and arbitrary arrests. In most cases it was civilians who bore the brunt of these violations.

But the organisation has also documented a brutal "settling of scores" by some anti-Gaddafi fighters when they ejected Gaddafi forces from eastern Libya, including lynchings of Gaddafi soldiers after capture. Dozens of people suspected of being former security agents, Gaddafi loyalists or mercenaries have been killed after capture since February in eastern Libya.

Amnesty International Senior Director Claudio Cordone said:

“Those responsible for the dreadful repression of the past under Colonel al-Gaddafi will need to be held accountable.
“The ‘thuwwar’ must be judged according to the same standards. Without this, justice would not be done and a vicious cycle of abuses and reprisals risks being perpetuated.

“The new authorities must make a complete break with the abuses of the past four decades and set new standards by putting human rights at the centre of their agenda. The onus now is on the NTC to do things differently, end abuses and initiate the human rights reforms that are urgently needed.

“Libyans have had to endure great suffering for decades. They deserve to participate in the building of a new Libya where these kinds of abuses are no longer repeated and tolerated.”

Amnesty’s report shows that when Al-Bayda, Benghazi, Derna, Misratah and other cities first fell under the control of the NTC in February, anti-Gaddafi forces carried out house raids, killings and other violent attacks against suspected mercenaries, either sub-Saharan Africans or black Libyans. It is a war crime for any party to a conflict to kill prisoners.

http://amnesty.org.uk/uploads/documents/doc_21834.pdf

Meanwhile, Amnesty is warning that as fighting continues, with some parts of the country still contested, there is a danger these patterns could be repeated.

Foreigners from African countries continue to be particularly at risk. Between a third and a half of all those in detention centres in Tripoli and al-Zawiya are foreign nationals - and Amnesty believes that most of these are migrant workers and not fighters. Amnesty found that widespread rumours that al-Gaddafi forces used large numbers of sub-Saharan African mercenaries in February had been significantly exaggerated. But NTC officials have done little to correct false assumptions that sub-Saharan Africans were mercenaries.

 

[belboid]

horrible stuff indeed. Although of course the same report says the state forces were vastly worse.

'He who believes in a perfect revolution will wait a lifetime to see one' - Lenin.

 

[dylans]

horrible stuff indeed. Although of course the same report says the state forces were vastly worse.

'He who believes in a perfect revolution will wait a lifetime to see one' - Lenin.

Atrocities committed by Gaddafi do not justify crimes committed by rebel forces.

A couple of weeks ago you were denying that such atrocities were taking place at all and scoffing at the reports I posted. You dismissed every report of systematic racist violence and argued

Belboid rebels have "beaten some individuals alleged to have supported government forces," and carried out some looting. Oh, the same articles point out that the rebel leadership have condemned such actions

fairly mild stuff for the overthrow of a brutal dictatorship

Now even Amnesty are reporting that there is a systematic campaign of racist violence across the country. I won't hold my breath for you to admit that you were wrong.

Atrocities committed during a bloody civil war is one thing, systematic racist mass murder, torture and detention of black workers across the country is quite another. particularly when the leadership of the rebels denies they are taking place. You should hang your head in shame.

 

[belboid]

Not quite, I said I didnt trust the reports that I'd heard. A rather different thing.

And one atrocity doesn't justify another, of course not. Nor does the decades of oppression and suffering, or the racism Gaddafi encouraged with his policies. But, as the report states, such attacks substantially decreased immiedately after those early atrocities - as the NTC demanded they did. you cant have it both ways dylans.

 

[dylans]

Not quite, I said I didnt trust the reports that I'd heard. A rather different thing.

And one atrocity doesn't justify another, of course not. Nor does the decades of oppression and suffering, or the racism Gaddafi encouraged with his policies. But, as the report states, such attacks substantially decreased immiedately after those early atrocities - as the NTC demanded they did. you cant have it both ways dylans.

Bollocks. Such attacks are ongoing throughout Tripoli and the country. African workers are in hiding terrified for their lives.

 

[belboid]

Aaah, so you believe Amnesty as long as they sday what you want them to say, when they say somethnig else, they're 'bollocks'. Not exactyly consistent.

Then again, why start now! I presume you also opposed to vietcong?

 

[dylans]

Aaah, so you believe Amnesty as long as they sday what you want them to say, when they say somethnig else, they're 'bollocks'. Not exactyly consistent.

Then again, why start now! I presume you also opposed to vietcong?

The Vietcong didn't hide behind NATO bombs in order to liberate their country and I don't think they engaged in racist mass murder of everyone with dark skin. In fact, I think you will find they were on the receiving end of US bombs

 

[belboid]

murdered thousands - especially trots - tho. Many, many, atrocities. But they dont count. You're a mess of contradictions.

 

[dylans]

murdered thousands - especially trots - tho. Many, many, atrocities. But they dont count. You're a mess of contradictions.

I am entirely consistant. It is you who shamefully wants to deny atrocities and racist violence by the pro NATO rebels that you support.

 

[belboid]

I havent denied anything at all. If you must lie, you must know your argument is piss weak. Which is why you deny what is actually in the Amnesty report. You are utterly inconsistent, which is why you keep trying to shift the argument!

 

[dylans]

I havent denied anything at all. If you must lie, you must know your argument is piss weak. Which is why you deny what is actually in the Amnesty report. You are utterly inconsistent, which is why you keep trying to shift the argument!

Do you still think that nationwide racist violence and the imprisonment, torture and lynching of innocent black Libyans and African workers is

Belboid
Fairly mild stuff

?

 

[likesfish]

The Vietcong didn't hide behind NATO bombs in order to liberate their country and I don't think they engaged in racist mass murder of everyone with dark skin. In fact, I think you will find they were on the receiving end of US bombs

vc were quite happily murdering villages and peoples courts in Tet etc as well plus went after the tribes as well.

civil wars are far from civil if a rumor or even a few African mercenary's were found its going to be tough on any black african found in Libya at the moment
the rebel forces are not a disciplined army

 

[dylans]

vc were quite happily murdering villages and peoples courts in Tet etc as well plus went after the tribes as well.

civil wars are far from civil if a rumor or even a few African mercenary's were found its going to be tough on any black african found in Libya at the moment
the rebel forces are not a disciplined army

Vietnam was a genuinely popular national liberation movement. Not a rebel force shepherded to power by NATO bombs. What we are witnessing in Libya is not a popular revolution but a regional uprising propelled to power by Western intervention.

 

[belboid]

Do you still think that nationwide racist violence and the imprisonment, torture and lynching of innocent black Libyans and African workers is

?

sorry - not trying to be funny - but the shite search functions on the new board mean I cant see where that actually came from or the precise context, and I'm afraid I dont trust you to be wholly unbiased So, maybe, maybe not. But whatever I said, it doesnt answer why you dont accept the full Amnesty report - which states that such racist attacks lessened significantly after the NTC condemened them. And says that those atrocities were on a vastly smaller scale than Gaddafis.

All you can claim is that the revolution is just a 'regional movement'. But cant provide evidence of such. You'd almsot think it was just that you were desperate to believe it to provide cover for your abysmal stalinist politics!

 

[dylans]

sorry - not trying to be funny - but the shite search functions on the new board mean I cant see where that actually came from or the precise context, and I'm afraid I dont trust you to be wholly unbiased So, maybe, maybe not. But whatever I said, it doesnt answer why you dont accept the full Amnesty report - which states that such racist attacks lessened significantly after the NTC condemened them. And says that those atrocities were on a vastly smaller scale than Gaddafis.

All you can claim is that the revolution is just a 'regional movement'. But cant provide evidence of such. You'd almsot think it was just that you were desperate to believe it to provide cover for your abysmal stalinist politics!

Here. You know, when you were busy denying and dismissing every report of racist violence that I posted and scoffing that I could find nothing by Amnesty.

so, you cant find owt from Amnesty then,

and claiming that rebel atrocities amounted to nothing more than the odd beating and a bit of theft.

rebels have "beaten some individuals alleged to have supported government forces," and carried out some looting.

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/libya-civil-unrest-now-nato-involvement.269381/page-192

 

[belboid]

No dear. I said I didnt trust your sources, and that at that point in time there was nothing on the Amnesty website - you couldnt find anything either for three or four days.

Your dishonesty is pathetic.

 

[dylans]

No dear. I said I didnt trust your sources, and that at that point in time there was nothing on the Amnesty website - you couldnt find anything either for three or four days.

Your dishonesty is pathetic.

You didn't trust my sources despite those sources including the UNHCR and Human rights Watch?

Pathetic

 

[belboid]

Now you love the UN! Blimey, astounding. And i dont think you did actually quote HRW, you quoted some group with a similar name. I found a bit on HRW, but it was pretty skimpy at that point. It was a few days later when there report came out, which did support some of your claims. tho only in specific instances, rather than being widespread or explicitly backed by the anti-gaddafi forces (something you simpoly assumed to be the case).

Either your memory is appaling, or you are being very dishonest.

 

[dylans]

Now you love the UN! Blimey, astounding. And i dont think you did actually quote HRW, you quoted some group with a similar name. I found a bit on HRW, but it was pretty skimpy at that point. It was a few days later when there report came out, which did support some of your claims. tho only in specific instances, rather than being widespread or explicitly backed by the anti-gaddafi forces (something you simpoly assumed to be the case).

Either your memory is appaling, or you are being very dishonest.

No. You are wrong. I posted a link to HRW. Here is the same link.http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/07/13/libya-opposition-forces-should-protect-civilians-and-hospitals

So it is you who either has a bad memory or...

And I have now supplied you with a 107 page Amnesty report for you to read. So there will be no need for you to worry about sources anymore will there?

 

[belboid]

I've already agreed that the Amnesty report should be respected - you only want to agree with the parts that suit your argument!

 

[likesfish]

so a regional based rrevoultion takes the capital with air support.
against a tyrant they've won

 

[dylans]

I've already agreed that the Amnesty report should be respected - you only want to agree with the parts that suit your argument!

Oh do fuck off. You have been denying that widespread and systematic racist attacks have and are taking place against Black Libyans and migrant workers across the country. Time and time again you have dismissed reports and accounts of such atrocities, dismissed my sources and downplayed the levels of violence because they didn't fit with your rosy view of things. You have claimed that rebel atrocities amounted to a bit of looting and the occasional beating. Amnesty have just confirmed what I have been claiming throughout this thread, that there is a wide ranging racist campaign of violence and intimidation of black Libyans and migrant workers and that black people are being detained in their thousands, tortured and lynched and now you want to accuse ME of only agreeing with parts that suit my argument? I was right and you were wrong. End of

 

[belboid]

Read the posts on this page dylans. And actually read the Amnesty report. They do NOT suport your claim if such widespread attacks, and they say they rapidly diminshed. YOU are denying that. You're a proven liar. End of.

 

[dylans]

Read the posts on this page dylans. And actually read the Amnesty report. They do NOT suport your claim if such widespread attacks, and they say they rapidly diminshed. YOU are denying that. You're a proven liar. End of.

It says rebel forces may be guilty of war crimes and that the TNC refuse to hold anyone accountable for such atrocities

The NTC is facing a difficult task of reining in opposition fighters and vigilante groups responsible for serious human rights abuses, including possible war crimes but has shown unwillingness to hold them accountable."

It also says such atrocities continue and that up to half of all detainees are innocent migrant workers.

Foreigners from African countries continue to be particularly at risk. Between a third and a half of all those in detention centres in Tripoli and al-Zawiya are foreign nationals - and Amnesty believes that most of these are migrant workers and not fighters. Amnesty found that widespread rumours that al-Gaddafi forces used large numbers of sub-Saharan African mercenaries in February had been significantly exaggerated. But NTC officials have done little to correct false assumptions that sub-Saharan Africans were mercenaries.

 

[belboid]

It also says that such atrocities have been committed by the Gaddaffi forces as well, both during the current conflict and for decades previously. It is foolish to take these appaling reprisals out of the context of the system that created the animosity in the first place. Expecting people who have been ippressed and stopped from organising together for decades to suddenly emerge with a socialist anti-racist consciousness is grossly naive. The appaling killings carried out by the VC didn't stop socialists from wanting their victory. The same principle holds here. Until you can actually show real evidence that it ISN'T a largely popular uprising against a dictator.

 

[dylans]

It also says that such atrocities have been committed by the Gaddaffi forces as well, both during the current conflict and for decades previously.

Absolutely. I have no love for Gaddafi and have argued that his was a vile and brutal regime throughout this thread. It doesn't follow however that I support NATO regime change.

The facts speak for themselves. This was not a national uprising. It may have become one without Western involvement. We will never know. What we do know is that this was a popular regional uprising in Cyrenaica, a region with a long history of opposition to Gaddafi (and a long history of Islamism and seperatisam) and it would have remained a regional uprising and civil war if it wasn't hijacked by NATO. Tripoli never rebelled against Gaddafi, instead they were conquered with the help of western firepower and a pro Western regime installed. This is the same template used in Afghanistan where regional opposition forces (the Northern Alliance) were propelled to power with Western support.