Libya - civil unrest & now NATO involvement

[Idris2002]

Lol, the projection of a failing puritan.

 

[weltweit]

The Global Risk of Arming Libya's Rebels By Diana Wueger
http://www.theatlantic.com/internat...-global-risk-of-arming-libyas-rebels/236994/#
Flooding the country with guns could set off an unpredictable and dangerous chain of events. We've seen it happen before

 

[Lock&Light]

He's the only one talking sense.

Not surprising that you should think so.

 

[ernestolynch]

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Shut up, clown shoes. He's the only one talking sense.

You don't mean that do you?

Louis MacNeice

 

[Idris2002]

Right back atcha.

 

[ernestolynch]

Right back atcha.

Now stop derailing it, King Idris.

 

[ernestolynch]

You don't mean that do you?

Louis MacNeice

Well, there's me as well. All you neoliberals are in la-la-land.

 

[Captain Hurrah]

according to dictionary.com
fascism:
"a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism"

Nailed on, IMO

What are the influences on Gaddafi's 'revolution'? The developmentalism etc (which is what I think Casually Red has been laudatory about). And which of them come from fascism? Depending on context, the above things are not unique to it, either, are they?

 

[Casually Red]

He might also explain why Nigaraguan Sandinistas , Cuba and Venezuela are now converts to fascism as well . It'll be interesting to hear him make the case if nothing else .

 

[Casually Red]

Of course he could have turned the offers down.

why on earth would he do that ? His job as Cheif of Staff was to seek to arm the organisation he led for the purpose of ending his countrys military occupation, not to seek your approval . Britian could have fucked off out of Ireland instead of being a shower of imperialist fucks and thered have been no necessity to seek guns from anyone. Political correctness versus ridding your country of foreign imperialism isnt much of a toss up . Your sense of priorities is utterly bizarre . Under your twisted logic the act of imperialism pales in comparison to having the audacity to explore offers of armaments to remove it from another bunch of nasty cunts .

And the claim that by not adopting the ideology of a fascist provides immunity from moral corruption, is not a rule. It's dylans opinion remember. You make it sound like its in the Geneve convention

the point is you havent demonstrated any moraal corruption on Sean Russels part whatsoever . Thats what you need to establish first to back your smears up .

Let's take YOU for an example. Because the IRA got some arms from Gadaffi years ago you now sing his praises, totally oblivious to the fact he's a fascist. You're presenting a case here for him on this forum, showing your support for him. I can only assume you'd be doing the same for Hitler if he'd held on to some sort of local power. That's morally corrupt! Basta!
And then you have the audacity to your self a socialist.

I made the case repeatedly that he has physically and politically supported anti imperialist movements for decades accross the 4 corners of the globe , not just in Ireland . Thats one reason why revolutionary socialist groups particularly in Latin America are supporting him in turn . Groups , governments and individuals who have actually fought imperialism , and won . Whose credentials are infinitely superior to whatever non existent ones of your own .

 

[ernestolynch]

Owned.

 

[Yossarian]

I grew up in the shadow of long kesh you idiot , our door wasnt knocked but booted through and my father carted off to be returned black and blue minus teeth a number of times after dodging internment in earlier years. Our home was machine gunned by the death squads your government armed and sponsored . Incriminating evidence was planted in it to try and secure my fathers removal for good and when that failed the assassins attempted it . I spent my entire life under your governments guns and watchtowers and helicopters hovering over the house every night for hours, with close relatives jailed and neighbours gunned down . And while the trots did fuck all Mr Ghadaffi sent boat loads of guns to try and put an end to it . Thats doesnt make me any type of traumatised martyr or higher up on the rung of MOPERY than anyone else but feelings of safety and security have most certainly never been an aspect of my own life , not even at home in bed.

Gadhafi's an evil sack of shit, but it seems like he was a canny investor when it comes to buying future loyalty.

 

[dylans]

I made the case repeatedly that he has physically and politically supported anti imperialist movements for decades accross the 4 corners of the globe

.
Really?

Gaddafi welcomes cooperation with NATO

Libya: Tony Blair agreed to train Gaddafi’s special forces in 'deal in the desert’
Tony Blair used his final foreign trip as prime minister to sign a confidential deal with Muammar Gaddafi to train Libyan special forces and supply him with Nato secrets.

A copy of the accord obtained by The Daily Telegraph shows that the two leaders agreed to co-operate on defence matters in a range of areas, including exchanging information about defence structures and technology.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...fis-special-forces-in-deal-in-the-desert.html

Gaddafi cooperates with Europe on keeping migrants out of Europe by brutalising economic migrants and asylum seekers

Following Tony Blair's famous kiss in 2004, Gaddafi entered into a series of agreements with the European Union and individual governments, in which Libya effectively became a co-partner in enforcing Europe's 'externalised' border controls.
Joint naval patrols with Italy; laws penalising illegal immigration; a crackdown on 'people smugglers'; new detention centres and deportation procedures; readmission agreements on migrants intercepted at sea all these developments reflected Libya's new willingness to cooperate with Europe's exclusionary agenda and many of them were part-financed by the EU and Italy.

Each year thousands of African migrants were deported to the Libyan/Sudanese border and abandoned in the desert, or flown back to their countries of origin on deportation charter flights without being screened to find out whether they were in need of refugee protection. There were also allegations of Libyan coastguard patrols opening fire on migrant boats.

Read more: http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/77278...f-eu-at-any-cost-libya-refugees#ixzz1Ixrlb3U7

Libya .A destination for the US extraordinary rendition of illegally held "terror suspects" to be tortured to death.

Ibn Al-Sheikh Al-Libi, who died in mysterious circumstances in Libyan custody. reflects the greatest catastrophe of the US rendition programme. In January 2002 he was flown to the USS Bataan, which was then cruising the northern Arabian Sea, and his interrogation began. From there he was rendered to Egypt where he was forced under torture to confess that Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein were in league on WMD – statements publicly repeated by George Bush and Colin Powell to justify going to war in Iraq. Many thousands of lives later we all know this to have been false, and Al Libi’s journey through the secret prison system ended when he was sent to Libya to disappear. He duly died in Libyan custody in May 2009.http://www.reprieve.org.uk/prisonships

Oh of course. It's the old Gaddafi that his fans are referring to. The pre-Blair, Gaddafi. The great anti imperialist. Let's go back a few years then. I'm sure this will show Gaddafi in a better light. Oh. It seems not if you are a Sudanese communist.

Gaddafi sends Sudanese communists to face execution in Sudan

In August 1971, Colonel Muammar al-Gaddafi helped reverse a communist coup against Sudanese President Nimeiry by diverting a British airliner carrying one of the coup’s leaders and handing him over to Nimeiry to be hanged. Libya turned over two of the top communist plotters to the Sudanese authorities, who executed them shortly afterward. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan–Sudanese_conflict

Yeah but he was a great anti Zionist though. Despite all his other faults. He has always been a great ally of the Palestinians. Oh!

Gaddafi deports thousands of Palestinians and leaves them stranded in the desert.

On 1 September, 1995 Colonel Gaddafi called on all Arab countries to expel Palestinian workers in a show of opposition to the Oslo accord. His motive appears to be two-fold - to show that the accord has not made it easier for Palestinian refugees to go home and to increase economic pressure on Gaza, which cannot absorb the deportees.

Earlier in the year, he said Arab states should make Palestinians ''camp out in the wilderness'' to dramatise their plight.

Yasser Arafat, the PLO leader, branded Colonel Gaddafi's call a "deliberate provocation" and an attack on the Palestinian people.

The Palestinian Islamic organisation Hamas, which opposes the Oslo agreement, called the expulsions ''unjustified'' and ''erroneous''. In a statement from Beirut, the group said: "The Palestinians must benefit from a dignified treatment in Arab and Muslim countries.''http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/gaddafi-issues-death-threat-to-despicable-spies-1600528.html

In an interview this great anti imperialist leader explained that imposing extraordinary suffering and hardship on ordinary Palestinians was for their own good.

as I care about the Palestinian cause, and in order to achieve the best interest of Palestinians, I will expel the thirty thousand Palestinians who currently live in my land, and try to secure their return to Gaza and Jericho. If Israel would not let them in, while Egypt does not allow them to pass through its territories, then I shall set a great camp for them on the Egyptian-Libyan borders” Qadhafi also added that “all of what I will be doing is for their best interest. No matter how they suffer, and even if they remain in the camp for years to come, this would still be for their national interest. And the whole world would come to the conclusion that the settlement is a big lie, and that Palestinians are still refugees. I hereby call on all Arab states hosting Palestinian refugees to act likewise...”.http://www.badil.org/en/article74/item/1571-art-02/1571-art-02

Gaddafi finances Sarkozy election campaign
Gaddafi. A true anti imperialist hero!. Though I am a bit confused about what is "anti imperialist about spendiing the Libyan people's money on Sarkozy's election campaign. Of course we could dismiss this as vicious Western propaganda except, of course, it was Gaddafi's son making the claim

"Sarkozy must first give back the money he took from Libya to finance his electoral campaign. We funded it. We have all the details and are ready to reveal everything. The first thing we want this clown to do is to give the money back to the Libyan people. He was given the assistance so he could help them, but he has disappointed us. Give us back our money."
Libyan sources have separately told the Guardian substantial funds were paid into accounts to support Sarkozy's presidential campaign in 2007
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/16/sarkozy-election-campaign-libya-claim

Gaddafi uses language that would make the BNP blush
Oh but Gaddaf was a true pan Africanist. This much we can respect at least. He was the "king of kings" which is a bit odd given that he was recently using the most appalling racism to demand money from Italy in return for "keeping Europe from turning black".

Speaking at a ceremony in Rome while standing next to Silvio Berlusconi, Italy's prime minister, Col Gaddafi, 67, said that unless his request for money was met, Europe would otherwise become "another Africa" as a result of the "advance of millions of immigrants".
"Tomorrow Europe might no longer be European and even black as there are millions who want to come in," he said.
"We don't know if Europe will remain an advanced and united continent or if it will be destroyed, as happened with the barbarian invasions".
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rn-black-unless-EU-pays-Libya-4bn-a-year.html

Gaddafi encouraged racist pogroms against migrant Africans.

In the year 2000 Gaddafi deported thousands of Africans and encouraged racist pogroms across the country that led to the racist murder of many innocent African workers.

Gaddafi's regime has been involved in the repression of black migrant workers in Libya. In 2000, workers from Chad, Nigeria, Niger, Cameroon, Sudan, Burkina Faso, and Ghana were targets of killings in Libya after the Gaddafi regime officials accused these migrant workers of spreading diseases, crimes, and drug trafficking. Accounts of migrant workers from these countries have revealed that Gaddafi's deportation practices were so inhumane that deportees were packed like animals on aircrafts without seats for several hours of

The racism of the regime was so bad that it was condemned by both the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD) and the International Confederation of Free Trade Unions

(CERD) expressed concern over Libya's practices of racial discrimination against dark-skinned migrants and refugees. In 2004 this committee accused the Gaddafi regime of violating Article 6 of the 1969 International Convention on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (ICERD). This accusation states that Gaddafi failed to implement proper mechanisms for safeguarding individuals from racist actions that undermine human rights. And six years after this accusation, Gaddafi went ahead to make his racist remarks about black African immigrants turning Europe 'black.'http://allafrica.com/stories/201103241070.html?page=2

I could go on and mention Gaddafi support murderers like Charles Taylor, Idi Amin and Robert Mugabe but I think my point is made. Gaddafi's anti imperialism is a complete and total fraud

 

[dylans]

Owned.

Owned

 

[pocketscience]

why on earth would he do that ? His job as Cheif of Staff was to seek to arm the organisation he led for the purpose of ending his countrys military occupation, not to seek your approval . Britian could have fucked off out of Ireland instead of being a shower of imperialist fucks and thered have been no necessity to seek guns from anyone. Political correctness versus ridding your country of foreign imperialism isnt much of a toss up . Your sense of priorities is utterly bizarre . Under your twisted logic the act of imperialism pales in comparison to having the audacity to explore offers of armaments to remove it from another bunch of nasty cunts .

Irrelevant. Hypothetical. Hyperbole. Soap box rhetoric.

the point is you havent demonstrated any moraal corruption on Sean Russels part whatsoever . Thats what you need to establish first to back your smears up .

I don't need to prove anything about Russell, because the point I'm trying to make has been perfectly demonstrated by you!
In your unwavering support for (yet another fascist that the IRA collaborated with) Gaddafi, you embody the very idealogical "strings attached" that you insist aren't part of any arms shipments deals.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, there may be a socialist deep down inside you - but from here it looks corrupted. A victim of the carcinogenic moral corruption that spreads when collaborating with the bad guys.

Just a bit of friendly advice, like

I made the case repeatedly that he has physically and politically supported anti imperialist movements for decades accross the 4 corners of the globe , not just in Ireland . Thats one reason why revolutionary socialist groups particularly in Latin America are supporting him in turn . Groups , governments and individuals who have actually fought imperialism , and won .

Do you really contest that the definition of fascism doesn't apply to him? Here it is again:
fascism:
"a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fascism

...Whose credentials are infinitely superior to whatever non existent ones of your own .

Supporting fascism is a credential I'm proud not to have.
Thank you!

 

[dylans]

That's a really silly post because all you have done is let him off the hook and diverted the discussion over the definition of a word. You are using the word "fascist" as a term of abuse not of political analysis and he will sieze on that to quibble over the meaning of a word and this will allow him to completely ignore the substantial and concrete charges I have just made. Well done.

Fwiw I don't think the term fascist has any real accuracy in describing the Gaddafi regime except in the most general sense of the regime being repressive and if we reduce the term fascist to those terms then the word becomes meaningless because it we might as well describe every dictatorial or reactionary regime on the planet as fascist. As a term of political definition, the term itself is disputed and becomes all the more problematic when trying to attach it to a regime such as Gaddafis which has reinvented itself ideologically over the years. From Nasserist pan Arabism to a bizarre self defined Islamic socialism, to a regime that has embraced neo liberalism and claims to a partner in the Wests war on terror. Gaddafi is an ideological chameleon and by throwing around barely understood terms like fascist you really aren't saying anything at all.

Personally I think you are a bit confused and don't really understand politics very well and I am not going to continue this silly line of discussion. It misses the point entirely.

 

[pocketscience]

That's a really silly post because all you have done is let him off the hook and diverted the discussion over the definition of a word. You are using the word "fascist" as a term of abuse not of political analysis and he will sieze on that to quibble over the meaning of a word and this will allow him to completely ignore the substantial and concrete charges I have just made. Well done.

You have exclusive rights to engage with him?... and on your terms?

Let CR answer my question... If he agrees that the definition I provided for the word fascist applies to Gadaffi then he's a hypocrite, because they're pretty much the reasons why the IRA fought against Britain.

If he doesn't agree... he's obviously deluded..

Fwiw I don't think the term fascist has any real accuracy in describing the Gaddafi regime except in the most general sense of the regime being repressive and if we reduce the term fascist to those terms then the word becomes meaningless because it we might as well describe every dictatorial or reactionary regime on the planet as fascist. As a term of political definition, the term itself is disputed and becomes all the more problematic when trying to attach it to a regime such as Gaddafis which has reinvented itself ideologically over the years. From Nasserist pan Arabism to a bizarre self defined Islamic socialism, to a regime that has embraced neo liberalism and claims to a partner in the Wests war on terror. Gaddafi is an ideological chameleon and by throwing around barely understood terms like fascist you really aren't saying anything at all.

You're right. The word it's self means nothing on it's own. That's why I provided the definition. That definition is perfectly clear.

Personally I think you are a bit confused and don't really understand politics very well

You've got me. I am confused.
Primarily by how a self proclaimed socialist / anti-regime rebel can support Gaddafi right now.

and I am not going to continue this silly line of discussion. It misses the point entirely.

You said 3 pages ago you wasn't going to engage with him again. But you did.

.

 

[Crispy]

Why use a fuzzy term like 'fascist' when there's the much more reliable 'cunt'

 

[pocketscience]

Funny you you say that, I was going to.
but the definition was too fuzzy

 

[ernestolynch]

Http://original.antiwar.com/pilger/2011/04/08/david-camerons-gift-of-war-and-racism-to-them-and-us/

John Pilger slams CIA's 'rebels' in Libya.

 

[Spion]

Http://original.antiwar.com/pilger/2011/04/08/david-camerons-gift-of-war-and-racism-to-them-and-us/

John Pilger slams CIA's 'rebels' in Libya.

Don't try and claim him for the Libya-as-socialist-paradise camp. He's quite clear that:

"There is a civil and tribal war in Libya, which includes popular outrage against Gadhafi’s human rights record."

and that this includes . . .

"the efforts of Libya’s genuine democrats and nationalists to free their country from both a dictator and those corrupted by foreign demands"

So, he's quite clearly not a Libyan govt mouthpiece like you and CR

 

[ernestolynch]

You're the new Mark Laity.

 

[Spion]

True to form, Ern fails to deal with the question and dishes out an insult.

 

[ernestolynch]

You started it kid.

 

[Idris2002]

 

[dylans]

You started it kid.

Ern I appreciate why you choose to completely ignore the long list of direct and concrete charges that I have made against Gaddafi in my post above It's often better to ignore charges that you cannot answer but it makes you look a little silly. Care to answer a single one of the charges I have made in post #4724?

 

[Spion]

You started it kid.

Is that the best you can do? It's pathetic and you should be ashamed of yourself

 

[ernestolynch]

Lol

 

[goldenecitrone]

or should that be G'Dafydd? LOL