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Libya - civil unrest & now NATO involvement

You are talking about the military. That's not what I am referring to. I am referring to the 1.3 million people who make up the population of Tripoli. Do you think they are secretly waiting with open arms for the rebels to "liberate them? What if they aren't.? They have shown no indication of supporting this rebellion. They may not love Gaddafi but there is no reason to think they have anything but resentment for the rebels or that they will see them as anything other than regional conquerors, tribal oppressors and traitors. There is no reason to think they will not oppose the rebellion or that they will not be repressed by whatever CIA installed regime replaces Gaddafi.

But there were Egypt style demonstrations in Tripoli before the fighting, they were put down at the barrel of a gun and some with live fire. I am confident a significant proportion of Tripoli will be pleased to see the rebels.
 
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Unfortunately this rebellion didn't do that. It remained a regional rebellion and as such it increasingly alienated large sections of the population.

I think this is a thesis but it is unproven.

Yes Benghazi "seems" to have more democracy supporters than Tripoli, but this may be because Gaddafi has a more tight control over the population of Tripoli than he does over Benghazi, it being further away from his home power base.
 
you make it sound like it's over

What is over? The struggle against Gaddafi? As a popular movement that was over the moment Western troops intervened.This is no longer a revolution. It is imperialist engineered regime change and nothing is more pathetic than the rebels hiding behind the skirts of western firepower, waving guns at the cameras and boasting of taking cities they didn't even fight for. Whatever replaces Gaddafi will not be as a result of a popular will of the Libyan people. It will be as a result of the planning in Washington, Paris and London and if history teaches us anything it is that whatever replaces Gaddafi will have nothing to do with democracy

The national democratic struggle however is very much not over. Libya is part of the regional uprisings sweeping the region and as such the struggle continues. It will just have to continue against the CIA installed puppet government that the West intends to install.
 
You are wrong. Identity isn't fixed or static. There was every reason for a genuinely national democratic struggle to overcome regional and tribal interests and identities and to capture the imagination of all Libyans. Unfortunately this rebellion didn't do that. It remained a regional rebellion and as such it increasingly alienated large sections of the population.

No, identity isn't fixed, but neither is it easily changed. You'll of course get people saying they're x, y and z, but actions speak louder than words. We're not merely talking about family or ethnicity here, in the case of the Senussis we're talking about a system that is at once tribal, political and religious. At that a system that goes back 200+ years. Your faith in the purifying rite of a national uprising is touching, but, I think, your ideal more than something corresponding to events as they unfolded.

Which isn't to say that there couldn't have been a national popular uprising against Gaddafi in the narrower demographic sense - the people of the state of Libya could have ousted Gaddafi as the common enemy (for a certain degree of common), but why on earth should that have had any greater chance of creating a democratic and respectful state of affairs? Who's to say that old divisions wouldn't have created a state of violent conflict as easily as you claim this Western-backed rebellion will?

So, there wasn't every reason to think that a nationalist rebellion would have captured the imaginations of all Libyans. That would've been nice, but evidence of that (disregarding the inevitable propaganda) is not exactly overwhelming. I doubt it would've captured the imagination of Gaddafi's tribesmen and their allies, for one obvious example.

What we saw in the initial stages IMO was a simple banding together against a hated regime more than for a notional Libyan people. When that failed, as it evidently did, the situation devolved to a default regional-tribal-political setting where interests are much murkier than simply removing Gaddafi and installing a social democratic nirvana in a box.
 
The latest leader of the rebels is Khalifa Hifter apparently according to the following article and looks so much like a CIA stooge its untrue.

Libyan rebel leader spent much of past 20 years in suburban Virginia

Since coming to the United States in the early 1990s, Hifter lived in suburban Virginia outside Washington, D.C. Badr said he was unsure exactly what Hifter did to support himself, and that Hifter primarily focused on helping his large family.
Vid of him arriving in Bengahzi

 
Bit dissapointed with the London conference, it only starts at 2pm, that does not leave much time for discussions. I suppose whoever controls the agenda has a lot of power in such situations.
 
1301: While the BBC cannot confirm this, Karl Stagno-Navarra tweets: "#Libya foreign Minister Mousa Kousa spotted with family, luggages in #Tunisia"

Was this the guy Al-Jazera caught in a Tunisian hotel a couple of weeks back and who then threw a fit when he saw them?
 
Where do you think an ambitious anti-Gaddafi politico would go? They are politicians, they either suck up to one power base or another.
Al Quida I don't know, you're saying every potential leader is sucking up to a power base well it would be a tricky path without a power base of some description the previous leaders were former Army generals based in Libya weren't they.
 
It seems the West is facing an increasingly difficult dilemma. All hopes were that airstrikes would even the playing field and allow the rebels to sweep west regaining lost ground and eventually taking Tripoli. However it is becoming apparent that even without airpower or even heavy weapons the loyalist troops are doing a pretty good job of holding back the rebels. They were pushed into general retreat today in front of Sirte. Now if this is ineeded the case and even with air support the Eastern rebels prove incapable of pushing past Sirte, then the West has a problem.

Do they bomb the shit out of Sirte, killing the civilian population, many of whom are the towns defenders, in which case they may facilitate the rebels further advance but the UN mandate will be in tatters. Talk of "defending civilians will be a grim joke and the UN and Arab league support will probably evaporate.

Or do they simply reinforce the stalemate by bombing any loyalist army heavy weapons and preventing a loyalist counter offensive in the knowledge that without more offensive action from the air the rebels will be unable to advance. In such a scenario the West risks creating a partition of the country. Two emirates East and West with an aggressive and wounded Gaddafi still in power in Tripoli. Such a situation may be a long term open wound in the country and involve a long term military commitment from the West to prevent Gaddafi clawing back lost territory. In such a case we could be in for a long and drawn out, not to say absurdly expensive, involvement from the West, another open ended war to add to the two the US and Britain are already up to their necks in.

Or, they could follow the logic of their own actions and explicitly side with the rebellion. Sell them arms and train an army and throw it at Tripoli. But this just begs the next question. What if that fails? Then, deeply committed to a civil war the next step is obvious. Boots on the ground. This is where this is leading step by bloody step
 
@ dylans - nah, not so sure. Interesting to see yesterday that the topic of Gaddafi being offered a safe African haven was being seriously floated. So that's one scenario, tho Lord knows how that would play out. Civil war could happen either way - sure looks like that's where it's headed atm.
 
Re: Dylans post above.

This is not new, it has been the case since before the no-fly zone and Resolution 1973.

There are changes however, the USA is now using A10 ground attack planes and AC-130 gunships which are better (more precision) tools to take out tanks hidden in built up areas. It is likely that these tactics will mean Gaddafi has fewer places to hide his armour and that the rebels will have a greater chance to make gains.

Plus on arming the rebels, even though it was not discussed at todays conference, a number of states including the USA have subtley mentioned arming the rebels to give them a better chance.

Action of any kind only began a short while ago, although a stalemate is quite possible, it is too early to write the whole thing off as a failure.
 
It seems the West is facing an increasingly difficult dilemma. All hopes were that airstrikes would even the playing field and allow the rebels to sweep west regaining lost ground and eventually taking Tripoli. However it is becoming apparent that even without airpower or even heavy weapons the loyalist troops are doing a pretty good job of holding back the rebels. They were pushed into general retreat today in front of Sirte. Now if this is ineeded the case and even with air support the Eastern rebels prove incapable of pushing past Sirte, then the West has a problem.

Do they bomb the shit out of Sirte, killing the civilian population, many of whom are the towns defenders, in which case they may facilitate the rebels further advance but the UN mandate will be in tatters. Talk of "defending civilians will be a grim joke and the UN and Arab league support will probably evaporate.

Or do they simply reinforce the stalemate by bombing any loyalist army heavy weapons and preventing a loyalist counter offensive in the knowledge that without more offensive action from the air the rebels will be unable to advance. In such a scenario the West risks creating a partition of the country. Two emirates East and West with an aggressive and wounded Gaddafi still in power in Tripoli. Such a situation may be a long term open wound in the country and involve a long term military commitment from the West to prevent Gaddafi clawing back lost territory. In such a case we could be in for a long and drawn out, not to say absurdly expensive, involvement from the West, another open ended war to add to the two the US and Britain are already up to their necks in.

Or, they could follow the logic of their own actions and explicitly side with the rebellion. Sell them arms and train an army and throw it at Tripoli. But this just begs the next question. What if that fails? Then, deeply committed to a civil war the next step is obvious. Boots on the ground. This is where this is leading step by bloody step

Well done, you've just saved me writing EXACTLY the same post. Couldn't have put it better...
 
There are changes however, the USA is now using A10 ground attack planes and AC-130 gunships which are better (more precision) tools to take out tanks hidden in built up areas. It is likely that these tactics will mean Gaddafi has fewer places to hide his armour and that the rebels will have a greater chance to make gains.

Hmmm. Yes that is going to go well.
 
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