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LGBT in schools vs religious parents

Well, there's your 'harmful actions' rather than just opinions.
Even if I had no proof that they had not treated all pupils fairly I think that them engaging in a legal activity to express their views warrants them being sacked...therefore I think them airing their views outside of work should cause them to lose their jobs. If we agree then I have misunderstood you post that I originally replied to so apologies for the confusion.
 
I'm not reading all that now but I'll have a look tomorrow. But in response to this: "It’s worth examining why the moderates are peeling away, falling silent and joining the wrong side though, no?"

But honestly I think it's quite simple. Many of the left wing feminists who were involved at the beginning like Ruth Serworka had established social positions, identities and social circles, as left wing activists and trade unionists and realised that association with someone like Posie Parker was toxic to that and have been appalled by collaboration with the far right. I don't think they have changed their minds so much but perhaps they were those with more genuine concerns whose involvement in the movement was not so overtly driven by transphobia. But the cost of being publicly associated with the movement now outweighs the benefits.

When it comes to those pulled to the extreme sides of things I think they are terrified of the wrath and shaming of the Posie's of the world. That seemed to happen to Stella O'Malley from Genspect when she came out with some stuff the extremist transphobes didn't like. They tore her apart, accused her of being a groomer, misogynist, risk to children etc etc just like they do trans people and the result was a fawning discussion with Posie Parker where she prostated herself before her and couldn't praise her enough. I think this group are new to campagning, have formed strong social attachments to others in the movement, have often lost friends and family on the way due to the obsessive nature of the movement and are terrified of being expunged. Gender critical social media pile ons are ruthless and relentless, they get one taste of that and soon fall into line.

A third dynamic perhaps is that as the movement has veered towards more overt and open transphobia it has pulled in the right and far right which has massively increased attendance at demos, crowfunding donations and online support. The gender critical movement has moved from a small number of feminists from the left, predominantly in conflict with other sections of the left, to a mob, largely made up of right wingers and men who have the muscle, both literal and metaphorical, to start winning things like the Bud Light furore in the states and inciting the Tories to first drop self ID and then trash it in Scotland. And some old school feminists, like Julie Bindel who isn't aligned to anyone and likes attention, seem to accept this as a price worth paying.

Would it not be more productive to convert "moderates" by re-examining some of the obviously preposterous aspects of trans claims? Very few people actually believe that a biological male with a cock and balls, is a woman because they've got a piece of paper that says so. However, many believe that they should be able to live as they choose without prejudice.

Why not identify as "trans women" and accept that trans women are not biological women? Why not accept that many biological women who don't want to share intimate facilities with people who may be able to get hard-ons and ejaculate semen, have a perfectly reasonable point?

Get rid of the absolutely bonkers stuff and gain new cohort of allies.
 
I think 8ball was meaning that bi people can 'choose' to erase their own identity if they get in to an opposite-sex relationship

'choose' in the context of homophobia which affects bi people if they don't stay in the closet.

but i'd disagree about it not taking any self denial - i'm aware that at least some bi people object to becoming invisible if they are with an opposite gender partner at any particular time.

ultimately, your sexual identity is more than who you're in a sexual relationship with at that time - people don't (for example) stop being gay (or straight) if they haven't had sex for more than x amount of time.

i don't entirely understand the bi-phobia within 'the gay community' - one time lesbian best friend and me occasionally got some funny looks from people on 'the scene' who saw us together and got the wrong idea. although it's worth saying that i'm not sure many people get assaulted in a gay venue for being perceived as straight...
 
I think 8ball was meaning that bi people can 'choose' to erase their own identity if they get in to an opposite-sex relationship

'choose' in the context of homophobia which affects bi people if they don't stay in the closet.

but i'd disagree about it not taking any self denial - i'm aware that at least some bi people object to becoming invisible if they are with an opposite gender partner at any particular time.

ultimately, your sexual identity is more than who you're in a sexual relationship with at that time - people don't (for example) stop being gay (or straight) if they haven't had sex for more than x amount of time.

i don't entirely understand the bi-phobia within 'the gay community' - one time lesbian best friend and me occasionally got some funny looks from people on 'the scene' who saw us together and got the wrong idea. although it's worth saying that i'm not sure many people get assaulted in a gay venue for being perceived as straight...

Thanks - that clarified Jenna’s objections a lot for me.
 
Would it not be more productive to convert "moderates" by re-examining some of the obviously preposterous aspects of trans claims? Very few people actually believe that a biological male with a cock and balls, is a woman because they've got a piece of paper that says so. However, many believe that they should be able to live as they choose without prejudice.

But this is in constant flux. When I was growing up many people said gay men weren't real men and lesbians weren't real women and trans people who medically transitioned were said to have had a sex change. There is a social as well as a biological element to how humans categorize sex outside of the laboratory. That's why straight men sexually harass and assault trans women. It's why a trans woman or trans man who pass will in almost all circumstances be treated as the men or women they are, and even those who don't pass will not be treated in the same way as cis people.

So what you're asking trans women to accept is that despite being treated as women, on a day to day basis, with all the risk of male violence that entails, they should have none of the protections and provision of safety and dignity afforded to other women. That trans people should be constantly othered and marginalised and placed at risk. That a trans teenager who looks like Brianna Ghey should be expected to use the men's toilets in a deserted bus station late at night or rowdy city centre pub. And this despite there being no evidence at all that trans inclusion in toilets and changing rooms is a risk and has been normal practice for decades with few concerns raised until trans people were turned into the latest moral panic.

And this isn't just some philosophical musing. According to the only figures we have roughly 10% of trans women were sexually assaulted in male prisons in the year the figures were recorded compared to about one in 300 cis men. Numerous studies have shown that trans woman face sexual violence at the same rate or even higher rates than cis women. And trans women deserve dignity as well as safety. Do you really expect trans women to stand in the queue for the cubicle in the toilets whilst men leer and snigger at them? Do you know what hormones do to trans women's bodies and genitalia? I suspect not. I suspect you don't know much about this at all but that doesn't stop you having strong opinions and an assumption that if trans people just did what you wanted them to then transphobia would disappear.
 
But this is in constant flux. When I was growing up many people said gay men weren't real men and lesbians weren't real women and trans people who medically transitioned were said to have had a sex change. There is a social as well as a biological element to how humans categorize sex outside of the laboratory. That's why straight men sexually harass and assault trans women. It's why a trans woman or trans man who pass will in almost all circumstances be treated as the men or women they are, and even those who don't pass will not be treated in the same way as cis people.

So what you're asking trans women to accept is that despite being treated as women, on a day to day basis, with all the risk of male violence that entails, they should have none of the protections and provision of safety and dignity afforded to other women. That trans people should be constantly othered and marginalised and placed at risk. That a trans teenager who looks like Brianna Ghey should be expected to use the men's toilets in a deserted bus station late at night or rowdy city centre pub. And this despite there being no evidence at all that trans inclusion in toilets and changing rooms is a risk and has been normal practice for decades with few concerns raised until trans people were turned into the latest moral panic.

And this isn't just some philosophical musing. According to the only figures we have roughly 10% of trans women were sexually assaulted in male prisons in the year the figures were recorded compared to about one in 300 cis men. Numerous studies have shown that trans woman face sexual violence at the same rate or even higher rates than cis women. And trans women deserve dignity as well as safety. Do you really expect trans women to stand in the queue for the cubicle in the toilets whilst men leer and snigger at them? Do you know what hormones do to trans women's bodies and genitalia? I suspect not. I suspect you don't know much about this at all but that doesn't stop you having strong opinions and an assumption that if trans people just did what you wanted them to then transphobia would disappear.

Not wanting to be too presumptuous, but I don’t think the below is something Spy actually wants:

“So what you're asking trans women to accept is that despite being treated as women, on a day to day basis, with all the risk of male violence that entails, they should have none of the protections and provision of safety and dignity afforded to other women”

Sorry about the iffy quoting technique - I think a recent iOS update and Xenforo update aren’t really gelling.
 
Also many women do not want what you are asking for and there are good reasons for this. No-one is checking genitals at the toilet or changing room doorways. The only way the system you want can be policed is through ensuring adherence to socially acceptable levels of femininity and masculinity. This would not be good for many women and would not be good for feminism. That's why the conservative right is all over this, they have realised that attacking trans people is a way to ensure the enforcement of gender stereotypes because anyone whose presentation doesn;t meet accepted norms will be denied access to facilities or harassed if they try and use them (as is increasingly happening).
 
Also many women do not want what you are asking for and there are good reasons for this. No-one is checking genitals at the toilet or changing room doorways. The only way the system you want can be policed is through ensuring adherence to socially acceptable levels of femininity and masculinity. This would not be good for many women and would not be good for feminism. That's why the conservative right is all over this, they have realised that attacking trans people is a way to ensure the enforcement of gender stereotypes because anyone whose presentation doesn;t meet accepted norms will be denied access to facilities or harassed if they try and use them (as is increasingly happening).

Guessing that post wasn’t aimed at me, but to my understanding the male/female thing with public toilets was only ever a social convention here rather than codified in law, as it is in the States.
 
Guessing that post wasn’t aimed at me, but to my understanding the male/female thing with public toilets was only ever a social convention here rather than codified in law, as it is in the States.
Not sure it is the law in most states. Certainly until recently trans inclusion was normal and the first round of attempted bathroom bills (around 2016) were bitterly opposed and all ultimately failed. A lot of red states are trying again though.
 
Would it not be more productive to convert "moderates" by re-examining some of the obviously preposterous aspects of trans claims? Very few people actually believe that a biological male with a cock and balls, is a woman because they've got a piece of paper that says so. However, many believe that they should be able to live as they choose without prejudice.

Why not identify as "trans women" and accept that trans women are not biological women? Why not accept that many biological women who don't want to share intimate facilities with people who may be able to get hard-ons and ejaculate semen, have a perfectly reasonable point?

Get rid of the absolutely bonkers stuff and gain new cohort of allies.
Am fucking fuming right now. Why do I have to keep reading these bullshit lies? Am having to put this poster on ignore now for my own mental health.

I and others have answered all these points over and over but this son of a bitch refuses to even listen. Can't we all ignore him? Will that make him go away?
 
I mean the main objection here is that to get a GRC in the first place we have to spend two years "living as a woman" which involves using the correct toilets and other public spaces. So its not an extreme viewpoint, its actually the mainstream path for transitioning as provided by the government and the NHS.

And also actually its the transphobes who seem to think that going through the process of transition with a magical piece of paper and your problematic genitals removed makes you a woman. I've always been a woman, even before i took hormones, but i needed to transition to make my body match how i feel.
 
Would it not be more productive to convert "moderates" by re-examining some of the obviously preposterous aspects of trans claims? Very few people actually believe that a biological male with a cock and balls, is a woman because they've got a piece of paper that says so. However, many believe that they should be able to live as they choose without prejudice.

Why not identify as "trans women" and accept that trans women are not biological women? Why not accept that many biological women who don't want to share intimate facilities with people who may be able to get hard-ons and ejaculate semen, have a perfectly reasonable point?

Get rid of the absolutely bonkers stuff and gain new cohort of allies.

You are aware that women’s toilets have cubicles, I assume.

The fear, as I understood it, was not about trans women, but about predatory cis men.
 
Am fucking fuming right now. Why do I have to keep reading these bullshit lies? Am having to put this poster on ignore now for my own mental health.

I and others have answered all these points over and over but this son of a bitch refuses to even listen. Can't we all ignore him? Will that make him go away?

He thinks he's a battled-hardened U75 debating champion. A lot of is disingenous. He's admitted all this. He likes to 'win'. Ignore him, you are welcome here. I'm fairly buzzing that a fair few transwomen are openly talking on these subjects on U75. And newer posters too! :) He does try to browbeat too. He'll probably have a pop at me, say I'm trying to ingratiate myself or something stronger. Honestly he can be 'alright' but he doesn't mind upsetting people or putting people down in a 'tells it like it is' self-congratulatory persona. If I'm honest it's not funny and he is a serious bellend. At best an oaf.
 
You are aware that women’s toilets have cubicles, I assume.

The fear, as I understood it, was not about trans women, but about predatory cis men.

Well it’s not just toilets is it? It’s all changing facilities and any other situations where men and women are traditionally separated. The fact that the term “cis” exists, acknowledges that trans women are different.

Trans women have a right to be respected and catered for, but if cis women don’t want to share facilities with them they shouldn’t be forced to. There are two sets of people here whose rights need to be respected.

It’s astonishing that there’s even a debate about whether or not cis women should be forced to share facilities with people who have male genitalia if they don’t want to. Instead of that, cater for both.
 
Well it’s not just toilets is it? It’s all changing facilities and any other situations where men and women are traditionally separated. The fact that the term “cis” exists, acknowledges that trans women are different.

Trans women have a right to be respected and catered for, but if cis women don’t want to share facilities with them they shouldn’t be forced to. There are two sets of people here whose rights need to be respected.

It’s astonishing that there’s even a debate about whether or not cis women should be forced to share facilities with people who have male genitalia if they don’t want to. Instead of that, cater for both.
You're advocating a third toilet facility. In this country. Which will never happen.

OK so given that won't happen, how many woman are concerned about this problem? And where does your 'hardheaded oaf' viewpoint lead to?
 
Well it’s not just toilets is it? It’s all changing facilities and any other situations where men and women are traditionally separated. The fact that the term “cis” exists, acknowledges that trans women are different.

Trans women have a right to be respected and catered for, but if cis women don’t want to share facilities with them they shouldn’t be forced to. There are two sets of people here whose rights need to be respected.

It’s astonishing that there’s even a debate about whether or not cis women should be forced to share facilities with people who have male genitalia if they don’t want to. Instead of that, cater for both.
boor off you transphobic fool , this is stuff that people who actually have a clue got over decades ago
 
You're advocating a third toilet facility. In this country. Which will never happen.

OK so given that won't happen, how many woman are concerned about this problem?

I don’t know but there were plenty on these boards and many that I know. Then there are women from more conservative cultures unlikely to appreciate a biological man in the swimming pool changing rooms.

Are you suggesting that no women actually have these concerns, or if they do they should just shut up?
 
I don’t know but there were plenty on these boards and many that I know. Then there are women from more conservative cultures unlikely to appreciate a biological man in the swimming pool changing rooms.

Are you suggesting that no women actually have these concerns, or if they do they should just shut up?

Plenty and many like who? A few internet bods who couldn't back up their shite? I don't give a fuck about 'more conservative cultures' either.
 
Plenty and many like who? A few internet bods who couldn't back up their shite? I don't give a fuck about 'more conservative cultures' either.

So only people who Humberto off the internet gives a fuck about should be respected.

Listen to yourself, ffs.
 
Oh sorry, tbf Si advocated reconditioning every relevant building in the country for a third toilet. That's where we are.
 
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