8ball
Merr xmas...
I’d never heard of that second idea, and I’ve been aware of the reclaiming of the term for at least 25 years, but I guess it highlights that whenever something is reclaimed, it is going to bring some pain to some people.
LGBT in schools vs religious parents
- Thread starter Anton
- Start date
I’d never heard of that second idea, and I’ve been aware of the reclaiming of the term for at least 25 years, but I guess it highlights that whenever something is reclaimed, it is going to bring some pain to some people.
InArduisFouette
Well-Known Member
exactly much more likely to hear 'poofter' or 'nonce' as blows come raining in from the bullies
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InArduisFouette
Well-Known Member
but he is certainly camp as a row of pink tents
Jennaonthebeach
What would Picard do?
If you're not trans then you probably haven't heard it tbh. Or just not really noticed. But the claim that queer is some sort of Trojan horse to allow the homophobic transes into LGBT+ is all over the media right now.
Jennaonthebeach
What would Picard do?
My grandparents used queer. It's not a word I've ever heard from the lips of anyone threatening to beat me up in the last 50 years.
8ball
Merr xmas...
Fair dos - I’d seen the idea expressed, just not specifically attached to the “Q” word.
Esp. since the T got in there before the
Q.
InArduisFouette
Well-Known Member
exactly it's much more likely to be experienced outside as word used by the somewhat ignorant olds
BassJunkie
Clams on the half shell, and roller skates.
I know this a complete bunfight.
But, fucking hell. What place does religion have in schools?!
I'm inclined to start a faith based school based on the teachings of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Or a fairies at the bottom of the garden faith based school.
Perhaps, as an atheist I'm as blinkered as anyone else. But I don't expect my children's school to teach them my personal beliefs (such as "We need Jungle", or "nobody should have to live without a subwoofer"). That would be axiomatically absurd.
Plus I'm quite capable of teaching them those beliefs myself.
But, fucking hell. What place does religion have in schools?!
I'm inclined to start a faith based school based on the teachings of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Or a fairies at the bottom of the garden faith based school.
Perhaps, as an atheist I'm as blinkered as anyone else. But I don't expect my children's school to teach them my personal beliefs (such as "We need Jungle", or "nobody should have to live without a subwoofer"). That would be axiomatically absurd.
Plus I'm quite capable of teaching them those beliefs myself.
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
He is. What do you mean by him being crafty?
Jennaonthebeach
What would Picard do?
The theory is that Queer is being used to encompass trans, sexual fetishm, drag queens, transvestites, kink, peodophilia, even bisexuality from those who claim that bisexuals shouldn't be included in the community, so that "proper" gay people end up being lumped in with all us wrong 'uns.
Irrelevant though - I've provided evidence that Queer by gay people as a reclaimed word has been in use since the 1930s.
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Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
In my youth (70s/80s), "queer" seemed to be used by people who seemed a little more progressive and didn't want to use "poof", or "Nancy", which were considered more heavily degrading.
Jennaonthebeach
What would Picard do?
It would be nice if there was some consistency. The Bible is very explicit about having piles of money being a sin. Jesus told his followers to give it all away. I don't see much being given away by the tory cunts who hide behind Christianity. To be honest i don't see much actual christianity at all. Only the bits where it lets them hate people who are different from them - which again, is not at all christian.
8ball
Merr xmas...
Not sure I understand what you mean. The B’s have been under the umbrella since the 80’s at least, haven’t they? (Though I remember a certain amount of distrust from my Uni days).
Jennaonthebeach
What would Picard do?
Groups such as the LGB Alliance have actually been extremely biphobic, claiming that bisexuals with opposite sex partners shouldn't be part of LGBT+. Refusing to use bisexual a lot of the time, claiming that someone is merely gay or straight based on their current partner. (pretty sure i haven't imagined the last 5 years)
Not helped i guess by the fact that bisexual groups have been extremely trans supportive as a whole.
8ball
Merr xmas...
I bet they love Tom Robinson.
Jennaonthebeach
What would Picard do?
Him and Bowie do get a lot of crap from LG people of a certain age. I've heard it said that Bowie was only pretending to be LGBT+ from several people. In fact he was bisexual with a preference for women.
8ball
Merr xmas...
I can understand it in the sense that it can feel like an ally has joined the “other team”, and also that the pattern could be read to validate things so many gay people heard from parents about it being ‘a phase’.
It’s worth examining why the moderates are peeling away, falling silent and joining the wrong side though, no?
I think there is something going on that is to do with a complete mismatch in how understanding of the social order is being constructed by (a) the marginalised minority, whose identity is being forced to cohere around their salience of their marginalised category; and (b) the “moderates” (as you call them), who I would describe as the mass of the public who never normally think about the existence of trans people at all.
There have been a lot of attempts to break down how the social order can be represented by different people at different times and with respect to different issues (ie based on dynamic context, not static essentialism). Without wishing to endorse any particular approach, this one seems pertinent (excuse my scribbles).
This is using a classic 2x2 structure. One axis refers to whether the social order is being normatively described as produced by differences between individuals within the group, or by differences between groups. The other axis refers to whether the pertinent distinction is constructed from the symbolic (morality, culture) or the material.
I think that one thing that is going on is that individuals within a marginalised group find their group identity to be overwhelmingly salient, which makes them construct issues related to the social order with respect to that identity according to the Social Diversity model. As the highlighted parts note, this includes rights claimed in the name of the group.
On the other hand, when it comes to issues related to gender, I suspect that the majority of the lay public who have nothing at stake fall back on a more classic Moral Order social structuring. As the highlighted parts indicate, this simply sees everybody as part of one big group, with Good and Bad individuals, based on whether they uphold or threaten the social order respectively.
What all this prevaricating means is that if you’re in one camp and you want to win over the other camp, you have to switch social models in terms of your arguments and appeals. If you want to persuade that trans people should be constructed as the gender they claim (rather than the gender claimed on their behalf), it’s no use doing so based on arguments that start from the Social Diversity construction of the social order — you need to do it by constructing this approach to gender as unthreatening within the Good Citizen/Bad Citizen stereotype.
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Jennaonthebeach
What would Picard do?
Not sure I can understand it. It's a prejudice based on faulty logic. Bi people do exist and as one, I'm a bit sick of all the erasure.
8ball
Merr xmas...
Of couse bi people exist. I mean I can see the logic in a tribal sense. Especially insofar as exclusively gay people don’t have the option of activating a kind of “stealth mode” and assimilating effortlessly into straight culture.
Not without all that painful “living the lie” business, anyway.
Jennaonthebeach
What would Picard do?
It's not much of a stealth mode if you end up denying a large part of yourself. I tried that for 45 years and had to stop after hitting a crisis point.
8ball
Merr xmas...
I mean if you’re bi (and cis) and you get married and mean it you can essentially vanish from anything LGBTQ+ related if the person you fall for is of the opposite sex, and no self-denial is required.
I'm not reading all that now but I'll have a look tomorrow. But in response to this: "It’s worth examining why the moderates are peeling away, falling silent and joining the wrong side though, no?"
But honestly I think it's quite simple. Many of the left wing feminists who were involved at the beginning like Ruth Serworka had established social positions, identities and social circles, as left wing activists and trade unionists and realised that association with someone like Posie Parker was toxic to that and have been appalled by collaboration with the far right. I don't think they have changed their minds so much but perhaps they were those with more genuine concerns whose involvement in the movement was not so overtly driven by transphobia. But the cost of being publicly associated with the movement now outweighs the benefits.
When it comes to those pulled to the extreme sides of things I think they are terrified of the wrath and shaming of the Posie's of the world. That seemed to happen to Stella O'Malley from Genspect when she came out with some stuff the extremist transphobes didn't like. They tore her apart, accused her of being a groomer, misogynist, risk to children etc etc just like they do trans people and the result was a fawning discussion with Posie Parker where she prostated herself before her and couldn't praise her enough. I think this group are new to campagning, have formed strong social attachments to others in the movement, have often lost friends and family on the way due to the obsessive nature of the movement and are terrified of being expunged. Gender critical social media pile ons are ruthless and relentless, they get one taste of that and soon fall into line.
A third dynamic perhaps is that as the movement has veered towards more overt and open transphobia it has pulled in the right and far right which has massively increased attendance at demos, crowfunding donations and online support. The gender critical movement has moved from a small number of feminists from the left, predominantly in conflict with other sections of the left, to a mob, largely made up of right wingers and men who have the muscle, both literal and metaphorical, to start winning things like the Bud Light furore in the states and inciting the Tories to first drop self ID and then trash it in Scotland. And some old school feminists, like Julie Bindel who isn't aligned to anyone and likes attention, seem to accept this as a price worth paying.
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8ball
Merr xmas...
Jennaonthebeach
What would Picard do?
can't believe there's someone here actually defending erasure of bi people.
There was a nationwide study about 7/8 years ago - a very comprehensive study about bisexual people, and it came to the same conclusions though i can't find it right now. But this is good enough imo.
Found this from 2017 by Stonewall. It's still not the one I was thinking off, but it's got similar conclusions. https://www.stonewall.org.uk/system/files/lgbt_in_britain_bi.pdf
Bisexual people experience worse health outcomes than other adults in England, national study finds - BSMSLink seems to be borked.
Is def a surprise (what it says, I mean).
There was a nationwide study about 7/8 years ago - a very comprehensive study about bisexual people, and it came to the same conclusions though i can't find it right now. But this is good enough imo.
Found this from 2017 by Stonewall. It's still not the one I was thinking off, but it's got similar conclusions. https://www.stonewall.org.uk/system/files/lgbt_in_britain_bi.pdf
8ball
Merr xmas...
Sorry, who is defending that?
Do we just have some basic misunderstanding here?
Thanks for re-posting the link btw- second one is working for me.
Jennaonthebeach
What would Picard do?
8ball
I think this is it - The Bisexuality Report from 2012. A bit older than I thought, but I remember first hearing about it around 2015 I think.
Jennaonthebeach
What would Picard do?
OK - well I am defending bisexual people being part of LGBT+ community and Queer community so why am I doing that?
No worries.
8ball
Merr xmas...
I totally agree that this is correct too.
I would be grateful, though, if you pointed out where you got the opposite impression, at least so I can avoid doing it again.
I think if you look you’ll see whatever it was is inconsistent with my other comments on this thread.
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