LGBT in schools vs religious parents

[littlebabyjesus]

Hmmm... hippy nonsense vs. semi-unstated authoritarianism.

Pass the soya milk.

As a child, gimme hippy nonsense every time. I fucking hated school. And the nonsense was way worse.

 

[8ball]

As a child, gimme hippy nonsense every time. I fucking hated school.

That’s kind of where I was going but maybe it was a bit veiled tbf.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That’s kind of where I was going but maybe it was a bit veiled tbf.

Ah yes I see now.

 

[TruXta]

That hippy shit might work for some kids. But I know several (former and current) kids for whom it would probably have been a disaster. But that's what we do with kids anyway - put them through the grinder and see what comes out. It's an adult's world.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That hippy shit might work for some kids. But I know several (former and current) kids for whom it would probably have been a disaster. But that's what we do with kids anyway - put them through the grinder and see what comes out. It's an adult's world.

yep, agree. I know plenty of people who didn't hate school, even the fuck-awful school I went to .

that said, the sample size is small, but the perhaps 10 home ed kids I've met have all been, from my adult perspective, well, better than I was at their age.

 

[Anton]

Whatever the problems with Dawkins he does seem popular with many atheists and people struggling with their faith in Muslim majority countries. This report suggests that Dawkins’ The God Delusion has been read more often in Arabic than in English.

Arabic Translation of “The God Delusion” Downloaded 10 Million Times

I am not denying this at all. atheists exist everywhere. I suspect that it is in fact different for someone in an Arab country to read the God delusion, as it can be read as a book and not tied up with the internal politics of multiculturalism. that said, it isn't really a very good book but if people like it, ok.

Tbh I'd make almost the opposite point to the one Anton makes. There is a big danger of racism or looking down on another ethnic group if you assume you cannot or should not pursue certain lines of argument with certain people.

this is also true, however, again, does argument go both ways?
ie you want to convert Muslims to atheism, socialism and pro LGBT, but are you willing to be convinced of the necessity of sharia law and studying the life of the prophet? if you are not, you are going to preach you own gospel of atheism and they going to preach to you the Koran.

How about organising an Islamic society pub crawl at the college?

the problems with some types of attempts at convincing people to change their lifestyle is with the person doing the convincing ie a skinny spotty palefaced sick looking vegan anarchist trying to convince the whole world of the benefits of veganism. its not convincing exactly. rather the pimply vegan should go and properly enjoy a beef steak.

the unspoken thing here is that atheism is undoubtedly true and that religion is in fact a delusion, and that people need to be converted to atheism, and from that, they will come to accept LGBT, abortion etc. is this correct? but there will always be people who will not accept atheism, just as there were in the USSR with its state atheism.

all this is not in itself racial at all. the same argument can be had with religious relatives.

however, racial politics comes into play because of the weird politics of multiculturalism that has developed, and the ease with which someone such as Dawkins etc can be shouted down as 'Islamophobic', or 'racist'. I don't think he is either, but he is something of a dork, and God delusion is not a very good book imo,

the same thing comes into play if criticising aspects of Judaism, as it easily becomes a charge of anti semitism.

the same thing come into play if criticising aspects of the LGBT lifestyle, it easily becomes a charge of homophobia or transphobia.

and so called anarchist libertarians are the ones who will do the work of policing what can and cannot be said. this is because they are fake libertarians and in reality pro state and want to shut up the very same people the state wants to shut up. ie religious ethnic minority parents who dont want their kids indoctrinated by the state.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

ie you want to convert Muslims to atheism, socialism and pro LGBT, but are you willing to be convinced of the necessity of sharia law and studying the life of the prophet? if you are not, you are going to preach you own gospel of atheism and they going to preach to you the Koran.

Muslims and any other religious people can believe whatever they like, as long as they don't force their beliefs and lifestyles on anyone else, including children.

 

[Pickman's model]

Muslims and any other religious people can believe whatever they like, as long as they don't force their beliefs and lifestyles on anyone else, including children.

And if they do force their beliefs?

 

[Athos]

I am not denying this at all. atheists exist everywhere. I suspect that it is in fact different for someone in an Arab country to read the God delusion, as it can be read as a book and not tied up with the internal politics of multiculturalism. that said, it isn't really a very good book but if people like it, ok.



this is also true, however, again, does argument go both ways?
ie you want to convert Muslims to atheism, socialism and pro LGBT, but are you willing to be convinced of the necessity of sharia law and studying the life of the prophet? if you are not, you are going to preach you own gospel of atheism and they going to preach to you the Koran.

How about organising an Islamic society pub crawl at the college?

the problems with some types of attempts at convincing people to change their lifestyle is with the person doing the convincing ie a skinny spotty palefaced sick looking vegan anarchist trying to convince the whole world of the benefits of veganism. its not convincing exactly. rather the pimply vegan should go and properly enjoy a beef steak.

the unspoken thing here is that atheism is undoubtedly true and that religion is in fact a delusion, and that people need to be converted to atheism, and from that, they will come to accept LGBT, abortion etc. is this correct? but there will always be people who will not accept atheism, just as there were in the USSR with its state atheism.

all this is not in itself racial at all. the same argument can be had with religious relatives.

however, racial politics comes into play because of the weird politics of multiculturalism that has developed, and the ease with which someone such as Dawkins etc can be shouted down as 'Islamophobic', or 'racist'. I don't think he is either, but he is something of a dork, and God delusion is not a very good book imo,

the same thing comes into play if criticising aspects of Judaism, as it easily becomes a charge of anti semitism.

the same thing come into play if criticising aspects of the LGBT lifestyle, it easily becomes a charge of homophobia or transphobia.

and so called anarchist libertarians are the ones who will do the work of policing what can and cannot be said. this is because they are fake libertarians and in reality pro state and want to shut up the very same people the state wants to shut up. ie religious ethnic minority parents who dont want their kids indoctrinated by the state.

What's "some aspects the LGBT lifestyle"? Do you just mean 'some things that some LGBT people do'?

The last para is particularly bonkers.

 

[Pickman's model]

I am not denying this at all. atheists exist everywhere. I suspect that it is in fact different for someone in an Arab country to read the God delusion, as it can be read as a book and not tied up with the internal politics of multiculturalism. that said, it isn't really a very good book but if people like it, ok.



this is also true, however, again, does argument go both ways?
ie you want to convert Muslims to atheism, socialism and pro LGBT, but are you willing to be convinced of the necessity of sharia law and studying the life of the prophet? if you are not, you are going to preach you own gospel of atheism and they going to preach to you the Koran.

How about organising an Islamic society pub crawl at the college?

the problems with some types of attempts at convincing people to change their lifestyle is with the person doing the convincing ie a skinny spotty palefaced sick looking vegan anarchist trying to convince the whole world of the benefits of veganism. its not convincing exactly. rather the pimply vegan should go and properly enjoy a beef steak.

the unspoken thing here is that atheism is undoubtedly true and that religion is in fact a delusion, and that people need to be converted to atheism, and from that, they will come to accept LGBT, abortion etc. is this correct? but there will always be people who will not accept atheism, just as there were in the USSR with its state atheism.

all this is not in itself racial at all. the same argument can be had with religious relatives.

however, racial politics comes into play because of the weird politics of multiculturalism that has developed, and the ease with which someone such as Dawkins etc can be shouted down as 'Islamophobic', or 'racist'. I don't think he is either, but he is something of a dork, and God delusion is not a very good book imo,

the same thing comes into play if criticising aspects of Judaism, as it easily becomes a charge of anti semitism.

the same thing come into play if criticising aspects of the LGBT lifestyle, it easily becomes a charge of homophobia or transphobia.

and so called anarchist libertarians are the ones who will do the work of policing what can and cannot be said. this is because they are fake libertarians and in reality pro state and want to shut up the very same people the state wants to shut up. ie religious ethnic minority parents who dont want their kids indoctrinated by the state.

I think I preferred you when you were farting on about rascal pigs.

 

[eatmorecheese]

Just to add to the home schooling derail...

My understanding is that if a parent decides to selectively home educate their child, the local authority might do a home visit once a year. Not against it in principle, it's just that I've encountered quite a few parents who have struggled to get their children to school (parenting issues, poor mental health) who are threatened by fines and legal action and decide to home educate to get authorities 'off their back'.

Social care don't work closely enough with education departments ime. There should be consideration given to the wider family context and the impact of threats of statutory action on disengagement with mainstream education. This obviously doesn't apply to parents making the decision home educate in the best interests of their child, but would be a much better approach for families who feel forced in to an untenable position.

 

[Red Cat]

Just to add to the home schooling derail...

My understanding us that if a parent decides to selectively home educate their child, the local authority might do a home visit once a year. Not against it in principle, it's just that I've encountered quite a few parents who have struggled to get their children to school (parenting issues, poor mental health) who are threatened by fines and legal action and decide to home educate to get authorities 'off their back'.

Social care don't work closely enough with education departments ime. There should be consideration given to the wider family context and the impact of threats of statutory action on disengagement with mainstream education. This obviously doesn't apply to parents making the decision home educate in the best interests of their child, but would be a much better approach for families who feel forced in to an untenable position.

That's my experience in CAMHS too. You have to work very hard to do any kind of linking up work, there's usually pass the parcel between camhs and social services.

I am also concerned about neglect that hides behind middle class alternative education, as is the case with the family I referred to earlier.

It's not really a derail, the whole thing is in the context of public health and children's rights. It doesn't really matter what an individuals personal politics or religion is.

 

[joustmaster]

Not true. You absolutely do have to register and there is considerable oversight and safeguarding. Friends of mine homeschool their daughter. They have had to jump through a lot of hoops.

The people I know have zero oversight and safeguarding.

 

[8ball]

The people I know have zero oversight and safeguarding.

Yeah, so long as you don't register the birth you're sorted.

 

[joustmaster]

Yeah, so long as you don't register the birth you're sorted.

I think they said they were leaving the country, then didn't

 

[zahir]

School defends LGBT lessons after religious parents complain

curious of what people make of this story. opens up some issues for those on the left as there appear to be a contradiction between progressive left/radical views and the religious beliefs of immigrant and ethnic minority parents as regards teaching LGBT issues in school.

Here’s a reaction from ex-muslims. The video suggests to me that part of the issue is with the teacher involved being gay. I think it would be a mistake to assume that the parents complaining are speaking for all the Muslim parents of children at the school.

 

[zahir]

A response from Andrew Moffat.

Teacher criticised for 'promoting homosexuality' said he felt threatened

But Mr Moffat, last year one of three British teachers shortlisted for a global ‘world’s best teacher’ award, says that feedback from most parents has been positive, and that the protests have arisen from concerns among a “very small minority” of parents.

“I’m in exactly the right place and I have no plans to leave,” he told BirminghamLive.

"It's the best school for me to be in because I've really wanted to find a way to work with different communities and this community is wonderful.

"I've learnt so much from the parents here.

"Some of the children were worried about the things they saw outside of school and I've been inundated with lovely posters this week.

"Children have said they're worried about me. We don't want children to be worried.

"I've said I'm fine, don't worry about me. There's been some lovely moments this week.

"The feedback from the vast majority of parents has been good, absolutely.

"I know that some parents struggle with some aspects of the Equality Act and we'll always talk and have respectful discussion.

"But, as I've said, the vast majority of parents understand that it's in context.

"Yes, we're talking about LGBT in a small amount of lessons but it's always in context.

"The context is that living in the UK, you can be different but you can get along with other people."

This report from a couple of years ago also suggests he has support from parents.

‘We respect Islam and gay people’ … The gay teacher transforming a Muslim school

Last week parents, collecting their children before taking them to madrasas, the religious classes, spoke of their support. The school is “shedding light” on the minds of children, said one mother. Parents’ initial response had been “How dare they? How can the government make this law?” But their anger had abated once they learned more about the approach, they said.

“If they don’t learn about gay, lesbian and transgender people in society from school they will learn it from the outside world and they could hear things like ‘that’s disgusting’. I don’t want that,” said another. “I agree,” said a third. “I’d rather my children hear it at school. When they are at home we teach them that in our culture gay is not allowed but we respect people who are different from us and hope they too will respect us and the boundaries of our religion.”

The parent of a 10-year-old admitted her views differed from her husband’s: “My husband is a strict Muslim and my son asked him about the difference between what the school says and our religion. He did not give him a good reply. My reply was that God has created us and he is the only one who can judge us. I have told my son that it wouldn’t matter if he came home to me and said he was gay, you are my son and I will love you no matter what.”

 

[likesfish]

Governments start pushing cadets when they generally run out of ideas. Cadets have been around for a century they aren't mini conscripts or terribly cost effective as a Recuitment tool either. There an old school youth group with a military theme that survive because they get funding from the MoD budget and government doesn't really understand what cadets actually do.

 

[Orang Utan]

I hated their presence in one school i worked in. It just felt like cannon fodder recruitment. Creating future PTSD suffering homeless veterans to advance commercial interests abroad. I always chucked out the brochures they insisted on leaving in the library.

 

[brogdale]

Governments start pushing cadets when they generally run out of ideas. Cadets have been around for a century they aren't mini conscripts or terribly cost effective as a Recuitment tool either. There an old school youth group with a military theme that survive because they get funding from the MoD budget and government doesn't really understand what cadets actually do.

The state completely understands the importance of normalising their claim to the monopoly on legitimated violence.

 

[Anton]

This is very telling from the ex Muslims thing above;

"This must be resisted at all costs! Progress must never be halted in the name of religious tolerance"

this is why they are ex Muslims and not Muslims, they don't believe in Allah, but instead in 'progress' which 'must never be halted'.
progress is defined as acceptance and celebration of LGBT.

not everyone is convinced that this is progress, i guess.

what if Muslims in this country want to be Muslims, which means following their religious tradions and customs, which do not exactly promote LGBT and feminism.
what you are asking them to do is to give up being Muslims, give up their traditions and culture,and embrace the decadent western lifestyle if they want to be part of this country.
i could easily understand why many will not do so, as it does not seem better than their way of life in practice.

the left needs to understand, it will never convince Muslims and others of LGBT being taught in schools.

 

[Athos]

This is very telling from the ex Muslims thing above;

"This must be resisted at all costs! Progress must never be halted in the name of religious tolerance"

this is why they are ex Muslims and not Muslims, they don't believe in Allah, but instead in 'progress' which 'must never be halted'.
progress is defined as acceptance and celebration of LGBT.

not everyone is convinced that this is progress, i guess.

what if Muslims in this country want to be Muslims, which means following their religious tradions and customs, which do not exactly promote LGBT and feminism.
what you are asking them to do is to give up being Muslims, give up their traditions and culture,and embrace the decadent western lifestyle if they want to be part of this country.
i could easily understand why many will not do so, as it does not seem better than their way of life in practice.

the left needs to understand, it will never convince Muslims and others of LGBT being taught in schools.

You'd have said the same about homosexuality I this country when religion had more of a hold. Attitudes (including the prevailing currents within religions) change over time (as well as from place to place) .

 

[eatmorecheese]

This is very telling from the ex Muslims thing above;

"This must be resisted at all costs! Progress must never be halted in the name of religious tolerance"

this is why they are ex Muslims and not Muslims, they don't believe in Allah, but instead in 'progress' which 'must never be halted'.
progress is defined as acceptance and celebration of LGBT.

not everyone is convinced that this is progress, i guess.

what if Muslims in this country want to be Muslims, which means following their religious tradions and customs, which do not exactly promote LGBT and feminism.
what you are asking them to do is to give up being Muslims, give up their traditions and culture,and embrace the decadent western lifestyle if they want to be part of this country.
i could easily understand why many will not do so, as it does not seem better than their way of life in practice.

the left needs to understand, it will never convince Muslims and others of LGBT being taught in schools.

Thank you for your theological and anthropological advice

 

[ElizabethofYork]

the left needs to understand, it will never convince Muslims and others of LGBT being taught in schools.

So what would you suggest? Do you think that all discussion of LGBT issues should be banned in schools?

 

[Red Cat]

What a load of wank.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

the left needs to understand, it will never convince Muslims and others of LGBT being taught in schools.

To be clear about this, 'LGBT being taught' doesn't mean kids are getting instruction manuals handed out to them. Respect for people with diverse sexualities is the issue at point here. I would expect all schools to teach that. If parents have a problem with it, tough shit.

 

[chilango]

What a load of wank.

Yep.
There is potentially a good discussion to be had here. We're not there yet though and Anton is just in the way at this point

 

[Pickman's model]

Yep.
There is potentially a good discussion to be had here. We're not there yet though and Anton is just in the way at this point

he's always been in the way

 

[chilango]

So, Anton do your "big reveal" and then the rest of us can move on.

Thanks.

 

[andysays]

To be clear about this, 'LGBT being taught' doesn't mean kids are getting instruction manuals handed out to them. Respect for people with diverse sexualities is the issue at point here. I would expect all schools to teach that. If parents have a problem with it, tough shit.

And significantly, once it was explained to them and they had a chance to find out more, many muslim parents didn't have a problem with it.

This is the bit Anton seems unable to comprehend or accept - being a muslim or a member of any other religion doesn't necessarily make you unable to respect diversity or the right of others to be themselves free from discrimination