8ball
Decolonise colons!
Because we’ve already done the sensible answer. If we’re going to get stupid, might as well get *proper* stupid.
LGBT in schools vs religious parents
- Thread starter Anton
- Start date
Because we’ve already done the sensible answer. If we’re going to get stupid, might as well get *proper* stupid.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
All of it; sex, when to have it, contraceptions, lgbt, abortion ....
ElizabethofYork
Old Crone
So we'll have another generation of badly informed bigots.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
And kids who have been brought up unwanted and pushed from pillar to post in a collapsing “care system”.
Sounds idyllic.
andysays
Love and solidarity
TBH, I wonder to what extent it's accurate or appropriate to describe it as "an entirely muslim school".
The figure of 98% appears to come from one of the parents, so I'm guessing (perhaps wrongly) that it's meant to mean "mostly muslim" rather than being a literal statistic. And what is meant by "muslim" here? Is it "practicing muslim" which covers a range of belief and practice anyway, or "from a muslim background" whatever exactly that means, or something else? I suspect it's the parent attempting to bolster their claim by suggesting that all or almost all the parents are in agreement with them, that their objections are shared by all parents, whereas this is unlikely to be the case.
Ultimately, unless the school is explicitly muslim in its set up and principles, and there's no indication in the article that it is, it's a standard non-faith school which happens to be in a largely muslim area, and should be following the standard curriculum.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
There are always going to be some badly informed bigots. There are always going to be muslims, jews, fundie christians, nazis, etc. Earlier you said that kids can learn from their experiences of mixing with other children at school and didn't believe anyone should force views on them (including schools). Surely that's what's happening here and what's more, it's happening against the wishes of most of the parents.
andysays
Love and solidarity
What views exactly do you think are being "forced" on to these kids through this No Outsiders programme?
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
"Homosexuality is normal" is the one that's getting up the noses of these parents. We may believe that but there is a substantial body of people from various backgrounds who disagree.
ElizabethofYork
Old Crone
I don't see that any views are being forced on anyone via the school. Some of the parents, however, seem to want to force the idea that LGBT is unacceptable and sinful.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Are parents equipped with the knowledge and/or experience to teach "all of it" though?
As a politically minded person, children have always seemed at the heart of things to me, of making sense of how we are how we are and who we can become (collectively). As you say, it's a social process - children are active participants in their society not just done to. I find it fascinating.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
The ones quoted in the articles simply don't want it discussed in schools at all to 5 and 6 year old kids. That's their prerogative.
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
It sounds like a classic case of "If you don't like the way 'we' do things, fuck off back to your own country", and
andysays
Love and solidarity
According to the Guardian article, its ethos is to promote LGBT equality and challenge homophobia in primary schools.
I don't think that's necessarily the same as saying that "homosexuality is normal", whatever that means, it's saying that people, all people, should be treated equally and that discrimination of any kind is not acceptable in schools.
spanglechick
High Empress of Dressing Up
Children have a right to a broad-based education. At the moment this includes the guidance that education should reflect British Values - critically this includes children being taught that in the uk homosexuality is viewed in law as being equal to heterosexuality, that sexuality along with race, religion, gender etc are protected characteristics and that regardless of an individual’s personal, family or cultural views, it isn’t acceptable to discriminate against, harass or abuse someone for having a protected characteristic.
I don’t see why any school should struggle to teach that. Even if the school has orthodox beliefs, they can still say “we in our faith disagree, but these are the laws of the land”.
Because children have a right to know that stuff. And parents won’t necessarily tell them.
I’m a deputy head of year for the sixth form. 16-18 year olds. Recently I was asked by a few of the students to do a “pits and bits” assembly with the girls, because some of them were obviously struggling with personal hygiene. Because some parents don’t tell their daughters how to keep their genitals clean, what products not to use...
Basically, if it’s important, it has to be addressed in schools. Because the kids have a right to information and some parents can’t or won’t tell them.
I don’t see why any school should struggle to teach that. Even if the school has orthodox beliefs, they can still say “we in our faith disagree, but these are the laws of the land”.
Because children have a right to know that stuff. And parents won’t necessarily tell them.
I’m a deputy head of year for the sixth form. 16-18 year olds. Recently I was asked by a few of the students to do a “pits and bits” assembly with the girls, because some of them were obviously struggling with personal hygiene. Because some parents don’t tell their daughters how to keep their genitals clean, what products not to use...
Basically, if it’s important, it has to be addressed in schools. Because the kids have a right to information and some parents can’t or won’t tell them.
The Pale King
Well-Known Member
No, it's not their prerogative. Parents don't get to write their own curriculum.
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
I wonder how many people here would argue for the right for women to wear a hijab to school, despite the fact that it's oppressing women, but because their religion says they should wear one? We should all be fighting for religious tolerance and understanding, right?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
We do things your way and lay down a policy we'd have endless arguments about whether case x fitted it
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
I for one would not think of preventing women from wearing what they want to wear
The Pale King
Well-Known Member
The idea that the hijab 'is oppressing women' is base and incorrect
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
An American Muslim girl comes to my house a few times a year. I pick her up from the train station, where she immediately removes her hijab. She hates wearing it, but doesn't have a choice. That seems quite oppressive to me.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Lots of things happen against parents' wishes when it's in the kid's best interests.
Don't you think it's in kids' interests not to be taught that homosexuality is wrong?
Athos
Well-Known Member
Not all women who wear a hijab want to.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
And I would oppose her bring forced, or feeling she's being forced, to wear the garment
Athos
Well-Known Member
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Education shouldn't be about telling children what they can and can't wear.
It should be about arming them with skills to be able to make those decisions themselves.
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This isn’t even sex education though, it’s just about relationships, in all there variety. The sort that these kids may encounter in their adult years. I parents can’t handle that, well quite frankly fuck em. Teach what you want at home. People don’t get to demand society plays along with their prejudices.
The Pale King
Well-Known Member
Anecdote isn't data.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Are you seriously suggesting that it's not the case that very many women are oppressed by being forced to wear a hijab?
The Pale King
Well-Known Member
Some women report feeling oppressed by it.
Many women report it differently. The blanket statement/assumption made in the post was wrong. The idea that the hijab is always experienced as inherently oppressive/patriarchal isn't true, denies women agency, and justifies imperialism (a central plank of the Afghan war propaganda was around 'liberating women' from the hijab. I think Lila Abu-Lughod and John Bowen's work both shows it's more complicated than that, and anti-hijab activists tend to be associated with anti-islam/ anti-immigrant politics more generally.
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