LGBT in schools vs religious parents

[8ball]

let's take things on a case by case basis for the time being

Because we’ve already done the sensible answer. If we’re going to get stupid, might as well get *proper* stupid.

 

[Spymaster]

What do you mean by "sex education" though? It's potentially a pretty broad area.

All of it; sex, when to have it, contraceptions, lgbt, abortion ....

 

[ElizabethofYork]

How about just leave sex education to parents?

So we'll have another generation of badly informed bigots.

 

[8ball]

So we'll have another generation of badly informed bigots.

And kids who have been brought up unwanted and pushed from pillar to post in a collapsing “care system”.

Sounds idyllic.

 

[andysays]

The parents seem to disagree though and he's had to resign from another (predominantly muslim) school for his views before. If it is the case how reasonable is it in an entirely muslim school anyway?

TBH, I wonder to what extent it's accurate or appropriate to describe it as "an entirely muslim school".

The figure of 98% appears to come from one of the parents, so I'm guessing (perhaps wrongly) that it's meant to mean "mostly muslim" rather than being a literal statistic. And what is meant by "muslim" here? Is it "practicing muslim" which covers a range of belief and practice anyway, or "from a muslim background" whatever exactly that means, or something else? I suspect it's the parent attempting to bolster their claim by suggesting that all or almost all the parents are in agreement with them, that their objections are shared by all parents, whereas this is unlikely to be the case.

Ultimately, unless the school is explicitly muslim in its set up and principles, and there's no indication in the article that it is, it's a standard non-faith school which happens to be in a largely muslim area, and should be following the standard curriculum.

 

[Spymaster]

So we'll have another generation of badly informed bigots.

There are always going to be some badly informed bigots. There are always going to be muslims, jews, fundie christians, nazis, etc. Earlier you said that kids can learn from their experiences of mixing with other children at school and didn't believe anyone should force views on them (including schools). Surely that's what's happening here and what's more, it's happening against the wishes of most of the parents.

 

[andysays]

There are always going to be some badly informed bigots. There are always going to be muslims, jews, fundie christians, nazis, etc. Earlier you said that kids can learn from their experiences of mixing with other children at school and didn't believe anyone should force views on them (including schools). Surely that's what's happening here and what's more, it's happening against the wishes of most of the parents.

What views exactly do you think are being "forced" on to these kids through this No Outsiders programme?

 

[Spymaster]

What views exactly do you think are being "forced" on to these kids through this No Outsiders programme?

"Homosexuality is normal" is the one that's getting up the noses of these parents. We may believe that but there is a substantial body of people from various backgrounds who disagree.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

There are always going to be some badly informed bigots. There are always going to be muslims, jews, fundie christians, nazis, etc. Earlier you said that kids can learn from their experiences of mixing with other children at school and didn't believe anyone should force views on them (including schools). Surely that's what's happening here and what's more, it's happening against the wishes of most of the parents.

I don't see that any views are being forced on anyone via the school. Some of the parents, however, seem to want to force the idea that LGBT is unacceptable and sinful.

 

[chilango]

All of it; sex, when to have it, contraceptions, lgbt, abortion ....

Are parents equipped with the knowledge and/or experience to teach "all of it" though?

 

[Red Cat]

I think Red Cat is spot on.

There is a really serious issue at the heart of all this.

Social attitudes are not formed, complete, at birth they develop and are shaped and transmitted. Socially. Obviously. So it clearly isn't a private matter.

Parents obviously play a massive role in this.

As do s hooks. It's a major, though contested, function of schooling. Both explicit (phsee, citizenship, British values, prevent etc.) but implicit in the relationships between peers and between pupils and staff.

Working in education it's always saddening to see a child's first expressions of bigotry or intolerance being expressed in the overheard words of adults.

It's doesn't have to be that way.

My daughter, who goes to a "faith school" and on my wife's side has a devout Catholic family influence, as we saw above is still mercifully free of prejudice.

I overheard her playing one day (fairytales as it happens) quietly insisting that her scenario was fine to play because "of course girls can marry girls and boys can marry boys...we can both be Princesses!"

As a politically minded person, children have always seemed at the heart of things to me, of making sense of how we are how we are and who we can become (collectively). As you say, it's a social process - children are active participants in their society not just done to. I find it fascinating.

 

[Spymaster]

I don't see that any views are being forced on anyone via the school. Some of the parents, however, seem to want to force the idea that LGBT is unacceptable and sinful.

The ones quoted in the articles simply don't want it discussed in schools at all to 5 and 6 year old kids. That's their prerogative.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Surely that's what's happening here and what's more, it's happening against the wishes of most of the parents.

It sounds like a classic case of "If you don't like the way 'we' do things, fuck off back to your own country", and

don't let the door smack you on the arse on your way out

 

[andysays]

"Homosexuality is normal" is the one that's getting up the noses of these parents. We may believe that but there is a substantial body of people from various backgrounds who disagree.

According to the Guardian article, its ethos is to promote LGBT equality and challenge homophobia in primary schools.

I don't think that's necessarily the same as saying that "homosexuality is normal", whatever that means, it's saying that people, all people, should be treated equally and that discrimination of any kind is not acceptable in schools.

 

[spanglechick]

Children have a right to a broad-based education. At the moment this includes the guidance that education should reflect British Values - critically this includes children being taught that in the uk homosexuality is viewed in law as being equal to heterosexuality, that sexuality along with race, religion, gender etc are protected characteristics and that regardless of an individual’s personal, family or cultural views, it isn’t acceptable to discriminate against, harass or abuse someone for having a protected characteristic.

I don’t see why any school should struggle to teach that. Even if the school has orthodox beliefs, they can still say “we in our faith disagree, but these are the laws of the land”.

Because children have a right to know that stuff. And parents won’t necessarily tell them.

I’m a deputy head of year for the sixth form. 16-18 year olds. Recently I was asked by a few of the students to do a “pits and bits” assembly with the girls, because some of them were obviously struggling with personal hygiene. Because some parents don’t tell their daughters how to keep their genitals clean, what products not to use...

Basically, if it’s important, it has to be addressed in schools. Because the kids have a right to information and some parents can’t or won’t tell them.

 

[The Pale King]

The ones quoted in the articles simply don't want it discussed in schools at all to 5 and 6 year old kids. That's their prerogative.

No, it's not their prerogative. Parents don't get to write their own curriculum.

 

[Saul Goodman]

I wonder how many people here would argue for the right for women to wear a hijab to school, despite the fact that it's oppressing women, but because their religion says they should wear one? We should all be fighting for religious tolerance and understanding, right?

 

[Pickman's model]

Because we’ve already done the sensible answer. If we’re going to get stupid, might as well get *proper* stupid.

We do things your way and lay down a policy we'd have endless arguments about whether case x fitted it

 

[Pickman's model]

I wonder how many people here would argue for the right for women to wear a hijab to school, despite the fact that it's oppressing women, but because their religion says they should wear one? We should all be fighting for religious tolerance and understanding, right?

I for one would not think of preventing women from wearing what they want to wear

 

[The Pale King]

I wonder how many people here would argue for the right for women to wear a hijab to school, despite the fact that it's oppressing women, but because their religion says they should wear one? We should all be fighting for religious tolerance and understanding, right?

The idea that the hijab 'is oppressing women' is base and incorrect

 

[Saul Goodman]

I for one would not think of preventing women from wearing what they want to wear

The idea that the hijab 'is oppressing women' is base and incorrect

An American Muslim girl comes to my house a few times a year. I pick her up from the train station, where she immediately removes her hijab. She hates wearing it, but doesn't have a choice. That seems quite oppressive to me.

 

[Athos]

There are always going to be some badly informed bigots. There are always going to be muslims, jews, fundie christians, nazis, etc. Earlier you said that kids can learn from their experiences of mixing with other children at school and didn't believe anyone should force views on them (including schools). Surely that's what's happening here and what's more, it's happening against the wishes of most of the parents.

Lots of things happen against parents' wishes when it's in the kid's best interests.

Don't you think it's in kids' interests not to be taught that homosexuality is wrong?

 

[Athos]

I for one would not think of preventing women from wearing what they want to wear

Not all women who wear a hijab want to.

 

[Pickman's model]

An American Muslim girl comes to my house a few times a year. I pick her up from the train station, where she immediately removes her hijab. She hates wearing it, but doesn't have a choice. That seems quite oppressive to me.

And I would oppose her bring forced, or feeling she's being forced, to wear the garment

 

[Athos]

The idea that the hijab 'is oppressing women' is base and incorrect

Some women report feeling oppressed by it.

 

[chilango]

I wonder how many people here would argue for the right for women to wear a hijab to school, despite the fact that it's oppressing women, but because their religion says they should wear one? We should all be fighting for religious tolerance and understanding, right?

Education shouldn't be about telling children what they can and can't wear.

It should be about arming them with skills to be able to make those decisions themselves.

 

[xenon]

How about just leave sex education to parents?

This isn’t even sex education though, it’s just about relationships, in all there variety. The sort that these kids may encounter in their adult years. I parents can’t handle that, well quite frankly fuck em. Teach what you want at home. People don’t get to demand society plays along with their prejudices.

 

[The Pale King]

An American Muslim girl comes to my house a few times a year. I pick her up from the train station, where she immediately removes her hijab. She hates wearing it, but doesn't have a choice. That seems quite oppressive to me.

Anecdote isn't data.

 

[Athos]

Anecdote isn't data.

Are you seriously suggesting that it's not the case that very many women are oppressed by being forced to wear a hijab?

 

[The Pale King]

Some women report feeling oppressed by it.

Many women report it differently. The blanket statement/assumption made in the post was wrong. The idea that the hijab is always experienced as inherently oppressive/patriarchal isn't true, denies women agency, and justifies imperialism (a central plank of the Afghan war propaganda was around 'liberating women' from the hijab. I think Lila Abu-Lughod and John Bowen's work both shows it's more complicated than that, and anti-hijab activists tend to be associated with anti-islam/ anti-immigrant politics more generally.