LGBT in schools vs religious parents

[danny la rouge]

Education shouldn't be be about telling children what they can and can't wear.

It should be about arming them with skills to be able to make those decisions themselves.

100% this.

 

[The Pale King]

Are you seriously suggesting that it's not the case that very many women are oppressed by being forced to wear a hijab?

It's all their in your phrasing, nothing for me to answer - who wouldn't feel oppressed at being 'forced to wear' something? Your contention is that all women are 'forced' to wear the hijab. I don't agree.

 

[zahir]

Your contention is that all women are 'forced' to wear the hijab.

Who is saying this?

 

[The Pale King]

Who is saying this?

Athos.

 

[spanglechick]

I know a number of young Muslim women who would tell you exactly where to stick it if you tried to tell them that they were oppressed because they are hijabi.

 

[Athos]

It's all their in your phrasing, nothing for me to answer - who wouldn't feel oppressed at being 'forced to wear' something? Your contention is that all women are 'forced' to wear the hijab. I don't agree.

I have contended no such thing. I quite deliberately said "not all" in my first post on the topic on this thread (and "some" in my second). Please don't misrepresent my very clear position.

 

[The Pale King]

I have contended no such thing. I quite deliberately said "some" in my first post on the topic on this thread.

I see. We'll leave it there then.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Many women report it differently. The blanket statement/assumption made in the post was wrong. The idea that the hijab is always experienced as inherently oppressive/patriarchal isn't true, denies women agency, and justifies imperialism (a central plank of the Afghan war propaganda was around 'liberating women' from the hijab. I think Lila Abu-Lughod and John Bowen's work both shows it's more complicated than that, and anti-hijab activists tend to be associated with anti-islam/ anti-immigrant politics more generally.

Except I never made the blanket statement you seem to be accusing me of making.

 

[Saul Goodman]

I know a number of young Muslim women who would tell you exactly where to stick it if you tried to tell them that they were oppressed because they are hijabi.

What about those who do feel oppressed by being forced to wear it? Do they not matter?

 

[Athos]

I see. We'll leave it there then.

The decent thing to do would be to apologise for completely misrepresenting my position, especially since the position you mistakenly attributed to me is racist (as you pointed out).

 

[The Pale King]

Except I never made the blanket statement you seem to be accusing me of making.

I'm sorry if I read this statement wrong:

I wonder how many people here would argue for the right for women to wear a hijab to school, despite the fact that it's oppressing women, but because their religion says they should wear one?

...The 'despite the fact' clause casts the wearing of the hijab as intrinsically oppressive to women. I thought that idea ought to be contested for reasons posted above. Apologies if I have misinterpreted you.

 

[The Pale King]

The decent thing to do would be to apologise for completely misrepresenting my position, especially since the position you mistakenly attributed to me is racist (as you pointed out).

You said 'very many' women - apologies for assuming that to indicate a majority. Happy to apologise if I have attributed to you a position you do not hold.

 

[Athos]

You said 'very many' women - apologies for assuming that to indicate a majority. Happy to apologise if I have attributed to you a position you do not hold.

Thank you.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Anyway, my point was religious tolerance. I'm sure a lot of people here would fight for the right for parents to send their daughters to school wearing a hijab, because it is their belief, so what changes when their beliefs result in them not wanting to send those same children to sex education classes?

 

[spanglechick]

What about those who do feel oppressed by being forced to wear it? Do they not matter?

I would hope that by attending school they are exposed to a range of views, encouraging them to think about the hijab, and whether they want to wear it, and then also that their education would qualify them to have the choice to live independently of coercion as adults.

 

[Saul Goodman]

I'm sorry if I read this statement wrong:

I wonder how many people here would argue for the right for women to wear a hijab to school, despite the fact that it's oppressing women, but because their religion says they should wear one?

...The 'despite the fact' clause casts the wearing of the hijab as intrinsically oppressive to women. I thought that idea ought to be contested for reasons posted above. Apologies if I have misinterpreted you.

If a woman doesn't want to wear one, but is forced to wear one by her parents, is that not oppressive?

 

[spanglechick]

Anyway, my point was religious tolerance. I'm sure a lot of people here would fight for the right for parents to send their daughters to school wearing a hijab, because it is their belief, so what changes when their beliefs result in them not wanting to send those same children to sex education classes?

Because children have a right to learn. Keeping kids out of SRE classes denies them the opportunity to learn that stuff.

 

[Saul Goodman]

I would hope that by attending school they are exposed to a range of views, encouraging them to think about the hijab, and whether they want to wear it, and then also that their education would qualify them to have the choice to live independently of coercion as adults.

What if being taught that they can decide whether or not they wish to wear it, results in them refusing to wear it? Who will be held accountable for the ramifications?

 

[spanglechick]

What if being taught that they can decide whether or not they wish to wear it, results in them refusing to wear it? Who will be held accountable for the ramifications?

Depends what those ramifications are.

 

[brogdale]

Anyway, my point was religious tolerance. I'm sure a lot of people here would fight for the right for parents to send their daughters to school wearing a hijab, because it is their belief, so what changes when their beliefs result in them not wanting to send those same children to sex education classes?

The obvious difference being that children can learn whatever uniform/clothes they might wear, but denying access to lessons negates the opportunity to learn.

 

[The Pale King]

If a woman doesn't want to wear one, but is forced to wear one by her parents, is that not oppressive?

Being 'forced' to do anything is oppressive! It is wrong to say that all or most women who wear the hijab are oppressed by their families or anyone else. It reproduces racist tropes and justifies state coercion (is it better to be forced by the state not to wear a hijab?). That is my point. We should be careful about the blanket denial of agency to particular classes of people, especially those with little formal representation/social power. As far as I know there are not the restrictions on religious dress in public space/institutions that apply in France.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Depends what those ramifications are.

I've no idea how it works, tbh, but from my (single) experience of someone not wishing to wear it, and the way she acts about having to wear it, I don't think refusing to wear it would a very good move.

 

[chilango]

Anyway, my point was religious tolerance. I'm sure a lot of people here would fight for the right for parents to send their daughters to school wearing a hijab, because it is their belief, so what changes when their beliefs result in them not wanting to send those same children to sex education classes?

Are you? I'm not sure many here are making that argument.

 

[chilango]

I've no idea how it works, tbh, but from my (single) experience of someone not wishing to wear it, and the way she acts about having to wear it, I don't think refusing to wear it would a very good move.

Whose decision should it be?

 

[zahir]

Being 'forced' to do anything is oppressive! It is wrong to say that all or most women who wear the hijab are oppressed by their families or anyone else.

But what about the women who do feel forced to wear the hijab by their families?

 

[Saul Goodman]

Being 'forced' to do anything is oppressive! It is wrong to say that all or most women who wear the hijab are oppressed by their families or anyone else. It reproduces racist tropes and justifies state coercion (is it better to be forced by the state not to wear a hijab?). That is my point. We should be careful about the blanket denial of agency to particular classes of people, especially those with little formal representation/social power. As far as I know there are not the restrictions on religious dress in public space/institutions that apply in France.

I didn't say what you seem to be saying I said. I never once said that all or most women who wear one are being oppressed. What I'm saying is that by its very nature (the fact that it must be worn), it is oppressive.

 

[8ball]

We do things your way and lay down a policy we'd have endless arguments about whether case x fitted it

That’s the way with stupid things.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Whose decision should it be?

That isn't my point. I'm not sure if I've fully explained my point, but I'm pretty sure I have alluded to it.

 

[Saul Goodman]

The obvious difference being that children can learn whatever uniform/clothes they might wear, but denying access to lessons negates the opportunity to learn.

How can you learn what clothing to wear if you're forced to wear certain clothing?

 

[chilango]

That isn't my point. I'm not sure if I've fully explained my point, but I'm pretty sure I have alluded to it.

It is my point though.

Education should be about empowering young people to be able to make their own choices (as they get old enough to make them). Not having them dictated to by parents or teachers.