LGBT in schools vs religious parents

[tim]

It is my point though.

Education should be about empowering young people to be able to make their own choices (as they get old enough to make them). Not having them dictated to by parents or teachers.

Ideally, but he reality is different, and it's not peripheral religious groups that create that different reality.

 

[The Pale King]

I didn't say what you seem to be saying I said. I never once said that all or most women who wear one are being oppressed. What I'm saying is that by its very nature (the fact that it must be worn), it is oppressive.

Thanks for clarifying, and apologies again if I misread you. I disagree completely.

 

[chilango]

Ideally, but he reality is different, and it's not peripheral religious groups that create that different reality.

Indeed.

I've been careful to say "education should..." rather than "education is..."



...but people are keen to find out what we think.

This is what I think.

 

[brogdale]

How can you learn what clothing to wear if you're forced to wear certain clothing?

For real?
That logic meaning that anyone ever compelled to wear a uniform would subsequently not be able to choose their other clothing.

 

[Saul Goodman]

For real?
That logic meaning that anyone ever compelled to wear a uniform would subsequently not be able to choose their other clothing.

Using that logic, anyone compelled by their religious beliefs to not be gay wouldn't need teaching that it's OK to be gay.

 

[Saul Goodman]

It is my point though.

Education should be about empowering young people to be able to make their own choices (as they get old enough to make them). Not having them dictated to by parents or teachers.

Of course it should, but what about the girl who goes home to her parents, after removing the hijab that she must wear? What about the child who comes out as gay to their parents, because their teacher said it was OK, and is subsequently abused by their community for doing so? Does the right to be taught that it's OK to be gay trump the right of a child not to be abused by their community?
I'm just wondering if at some point, maybe the right thing to do is not get involved in certain aspects of a child's education, especially so if that child comes from a background that disagrees with those teachings, as is the case in the OP.

 

[8ball]

Using that logic, anyone compelled by their religious beliefs to not be gay wouldn't need teaching that it's OK to be gay.

Is it just me that’s thinking that’s not the same logic?

 

[danny la rouge]

Is it just me that’s thinking that’s not the same logic?

No.

 

[brogdale]

Using that logic, anyone compelled by their religious beliefs to not be gay wouldn't need teaching that it's OK to be gay.

Yeah, you win with that.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Is it just me that’s thinking that’s not the same logic?

Maybe I misread it. I'm tired.

 

[chilango]

Of course it should, but what about the girl who goes home to her parents, after removing the hijab that she must wear? What about the child who comes out as gay to their parents, because their teacher said it was OK, and is subsequently abused by their community for doing so? Does the right to be taught that it's OK to be gay trump the right of a child not to be abused by their community?
I'm just wondering if at some point, maybe the right thing to do is not get involved in certain aspects of a child's education, especially so if that child comes from a background that disagrees with those teachings, as is the case in the OP.

One of the things about "arming" or empowering young people to make their own decisions is about an awareness of potential consequences to those decisions...and to include that in their decision making process.

 

[Saul Goodman]

One of the things about "arming" or empowering young people to make their own decisions is about an awareness of potential consequences to those decisions...and to include that in their decision making process.

How many children fully understand the concept of consequences?

 

[redsquirrel]

How about just leave sex education to parents?

Because as chilango says some aren't equipped to teach it and other may refuse to.

You don't think young people have the right to know how to have safe sex? And what about consent? There's reams of evidence that shows that many people do not understand what consent means. If we just leave these topics to parents how are we going to tackle issues like underage pregnancies, sexual assaults?

 

[brogdale]

How many children fully understand the concept of consequences?

What are you actually advocating? That kids should just be taught Maths etc.? Might save time if you just came out with it?

 

[Red Cat]

How many children fully understand the concept of consequences?

They're working out cause and effect as soon as they're born. The capacity to be able to imagine consequences further in the future develops over time and probably varies. My 11 year old shows an excellent capacity to think about consequences within the constraints of her experience and imagination.

What about you?

 

[chilango]

How many children fully understand the concept of consequences?

Obviously as children grow the complexity of decisions they can make also grows. Certainly ime consequences can be understood from a pretty early age. Again, increasing in complexity as the child grows.

But go into any school and you'll find the concept of consequences is pretty much universally relied upon.

 

[Saul Goodman]

What are you actually advocating? That kids should just be taught Maths etc.? Might save time if you just came out with it?

I'm not advocating anything, which is why I specifically said "I'm just wondering if at some point, maybe the right thing to do is not get involved in certain aspects of a child's education" I don't actually hold a definitive position on this, I'm merely trying to see it from the point of view of those who wish their children not to be taught these things.

 

[Saul Goodman]

They're working out cause and effect as soon as they're born. The capacity to be able to imagine consequences further in the future develops over time and probably varies. My 11 year old shows an excellent capacity to think about consequences within the constraints of her experience and imagination.

What about you?

I know that up until my mid teens, I couldn't have cared less about the consequences of my actions.

 

[chilango]

I know that up until my mid teens, I couldn't have cared less about the consequences of my actions.

Choosing to ignore them is not the same as being unaware of them.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Choosing to ignore them is not the same as being unaware of them.

It kinda is. Like playing on train lines is dangerous. Every child knows this, but children are invincible, and I was never going to be the one that got hit by a train.

 

[brogdale]

I'm not advocating anything, which is why I specifically said "I'm just wondering if at some point, maybe the right thing to do is not get involved in certain aspects of a child's education" I don't actually hold a definitive position on this, I'm merely trying to see it from the point of view of those who wish their children not to be taught these things.

So you're wondering if it would be right to modify the state school curriculum to accommodate the very small minority of parents objecting on the basis of their own particular supernatural belief system?

 

[Saul Goodman]

So you're wondering if it would be right to modify the state school curriculum to accommodate the very small minority of parents objecting on the basis of their own particular supernatural belief system?

No.

 

[brogdale]

No.

OK, I give up.
I can't discern any point.

 

[Saul Goodman]

OK, I give up.
I can't discern any point.

You asked me a very specific question, to which I gave a definitive answer.

 

[brogdale]

You asked me a very specific question, to which I gave a definitive answer.

Indeed.

 

[Red Cat]

I know that up until my mid teens, I couldn't have cared less about the consequences of my actions.

Risk taking and difficulty thinking about consequences seems to be part of early/mid adolescence and likely to be linked with the massive changes in the brain that take place then as well as the desire to fit in socially. Whereas my 11 year old's class had a discussion recently on transgender issues in which they had to think about how they would feel (about the scenario) and how they would act, and it sounds like they were all pretty thoughtful.

 

[Anton]

this is a long thread-

here is the news as reported by 5pillarz, and Muslim news site;
Birmingham parents may take kids out of school over homosexuality promotion

" They also complained that the national media had demonised them as bigoted and homophobic when they were not.

One of the campaign leaders, parent Fatima Shah, said: “They are drip-feeding this to the children constantly, whether in English, Arts or Maths lessons. It’s always there.”

Another parent said: “They are very cleverly doing it so that parents are not noticing it. My daughter has been asked to draw a family of all the same sex. That’s wrong. That’s why parents must spend time going through their children’s books to see what they’re learning about.”

I wonder if anybody remembers this jingle:

"Its OK to wear a burqa,
would you like a
copy of socialist worker?"

there are several problems and they are all complex.
the first is multiculturalism.
if there are different cultures, and these have a legal right to exist, then different cultures will have different values. LGBT is not given a positive value by many cultures.
Many people, including the parents quoted in the article above, feel that LGBT is being pushed, that it is being promoted by the state, the media, and leftist organisations with a clear agenda which isn't about just allowing LGBT people to live in peace without persecution.

 

[Athos]

this is a long thread-

here is the news as reported by 5pillarz, and Muslim news site;
Birmingham parents may take kids out of school over homosexuality promotion

" They also complained that the national media had demonised them as bigoted and homophobic when they were not.

One of the campaign leaders, parent Fatima Shah, said: “They are drip-feeding this to the children constantly, whether in English, Arts or Maths lessons. It’s always there.”

Another parent said: “They are very cleverly doing it so that parents are not noticing it. My daughter has been asked to draw a family of all the same sex. That’s wrong. That’s why parents must spend time going through their children’s books to see what they’re learning about.”

I wonder if anybody remembers this jingle:

"Its OK to wear a burqa,
would you like a
copy of socialist worker?"

there are several problems and they are all complex.
the first is multiculturalism.
if there are different cultures, and these have a legal right to exist, then different cultures will have different values. LGBT is not given a positive value by many cultures.
Many people, including the parents quoted in the article above, feel that LGBT is being pushed, that it is being promoted by the state, the media, and leftist organisations with a clear agenda which isn't about just allowing LGBT people to live in peace without persecution.

It depends what you mean by multiculturalism. People like Kennn Malik give an excellent critique of top-down multiculturalism, from a left perspective. Whereas many in the right criticise multiculturalism as code for saying "send 'em back".

 

[Spymaster]

this is a long thread-

here is the news as reported by 5pillarz, and Muslim news site;
Birmingham parents may take kids out of school over homosexuality promotion

" They also complained that the national media had demonised them as bigoted and homophobic when they were not.

One of the campaign leaders, parent Fatima Shah, said: “They are drip-feeding this to the children constantly, whether in English, Arts or Maths lessons. It’s always there.”

Another parent said: “They are very cleverly doing it so that parents are not noticing it. My daughter has been asked to draw a family of all the same sex. That’s wrong. That’s why parents must spend time going through their children’s books to see what they’re learning about.”

I wonder if anybody remembers this jingle:

"Its OK to wear a burqa,
would you like a
copy of socialist worker?"

there are several problems and they are all complex.
the first is multiculturalism.
if there are different cultures, and these have a legal right to exist, then different cultures will have different values. LGBT is not given a positive value by many cultures.
Many people, including the parents quoted in the article above, feel that LGBT is being pushed, that it is being promoted by the state, the media, and leftist organisations with a clear agenda which isn't about just allowing LGBT people to live in peace without persecution.

I was speaking to my wife about this last night. She's a Sikh. When she was at school kids had to have permission to join sex education classes. Her parents flatly refused and she and others whose parents refused we're separated from the rest during the lessons. She thought that was stupid so when her younger sister came home with a similar letter two years later, Mrs Spy forged their parents permission for her. All they learned back then was the reproductive system, how babies were made, and what a menstrual cycle was. Sikhism is (largely) tolerant of homosexuality, in that it is not condemned in any scripture and marriage is between souls which are genderless. It's a bit more complicated than that as there are individuals with other opinions but in general that's where they are. I asked her about Muslims who are homophobic and schooling and she said, rather uncharitably "fuck them". Hers is the same view as some on here; that we have national values which include tolerance of lbgt and those should absolutely be taught in the national curriculum. I think now I have to agree with that. If the parents don't like it they should send their kids to faith schools. That opens another can of worms though.

It's not as straightforward as some posters here make out though, especially those who want to refer to religious folk as "deluded", gods as "sky pixies" and all that moronic guff which in itself is supremely intolerant. There are many people, scientists and scholars far more thoughtful than anyone on U75, who do believe in a god or gods or at least don't dismiss the possibility out of hand. We also have a fairly large section of posters on these very boards, not trolls but well regarded regulars; "lefties" who disagree with certain aspects of transexual "ideology" as per the awful trans thread. Look how they've reacted to children being taught that transexualism is perfectly normal and that male bodied kids should be able to use female or joint facilities. This goes beyond religion.

 

[brogdale]

I was speaking to my wife about this last night. She's a Sikh. When she was at school kids had to have permission to join sex education classes. Her parents flatly refused and she and others whose parents refused we're segregated from the others during the lessons. She thought that was stupid so when her younger sister came home with a similar letter two years later, Mrs Spy forged their parents permission for her. All they learned back then was the reproductive system, how babies were made, and what a menstrual cycle was. Sikhism is (largely) tolerant of homosexuality, in that it is not condemned in any scripture and marriage is between souls which are genderless. It's a bit more complicated than that as there are individuals with other opinions but in general that's where they are. I asked her about Muslims who are homophobic and schooling and she said, rather uncharitably "fuck them". Hers is the same view as some on here; that we have national values which include tolerance of lbgt and those should absolutely be taught in the national curriculum. I think now I have to agree with that. If the parents don't like it they should send their kids to faith schools. That opens another can of worms though.

It's not as easy as some posters here make out though, especially those who want to refer to religious folk as "deluded", gods as "sky pixies" and all that moronic guff which in itself is supremely intolerant. There are many people, scientists and scholars far more thoughtful than anyone on U75 who do believe in a god or gods, or at least don't dismiss the possibility out of hand. We also have a fair section of posters on these very boards, not trolls but well regarded regulars, who disagree with certain aspects of transexual "ideology" as per that awful trans thread. Look how they've reacted to children being taught that transexualism is perfectly normal and that male bodied kids should be able to use female or joint facilities. This goes beyond religion.

Agree with most of that thoughtful post, but I remain deeply troubled by the notion of 'faith schools'. I really don't think that a secular state should use public money to facilitate schooling where the pupils are selected exclusively on the basis of their parents' professed supernatural belief system.