Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

LGBT in schools vs religious parents

They do say this or that faith is one of peace (please bear with me). Who is to say we wouldn't be in some kind of dystopian wasteland without it all? Its the human experience isn't it? By which I mean the good and bad, and the shitness of what is imposed on each of us who suffer it. Whether you want to or not it can't all be easily dismissed. For me there is enough mutual respect to be had for us all, or there should be. People were just as brutal, venal and violent in the medieval times and previously. Its hard to make a simple comparison, but much of the drivers of that were not religion, but greed etc. That in the time of 'indulgences' and pilgrimages; when access to religious texts and teachings were controlled and restricted.

I think we do ourselves a disservice by throwing the 'baby out with the bathwater' somewhat.
 
The whole thread is really arrogant. Not sure I see a huge difference between anyone really, it's an excuse for a fight, because that's urban. I don't think anyone with very few exceptions actually gives a fuck about how we think about social attitudes with children. You'd think it wasn't worthy of political discussion.
 
The whole thread is really arrogant. Not sure I see a huge difference between anyone really, it's an excuse for a fight, because that's urban. I don't think anyone with very few exceptions actually gives a fuck about how we think about social attitudes with children. You'd think it wasn't worthy of political discussion.
If the point of the thread was to explore sawc then yeh it would be a clusterfuck. But the point of the thread, like all anton's other contributions, was to have a pop at anarchists and the left. Then you got Wookey and his er peculiar views, blue touchpapers lit, stand well back. This was never going to be the thread about sawc you lament.
 
Last edited:
There's plenty of fair and useful criticisms that can be made of anarchist politics and activity (most anarchists make plenty themselves) but Anton can't even seem to get them right, he just sounds like a ignorant right winger who's experience of the left seems to be taken from Youtube.
 
There's plenty of fair and useful criticisms that can be made of anarchist politics and activity (most anarchists make plenty themselves) but Anton can't even seem to get them right, he just sounds like a ignorant right winger who's experience of the left seems to be taken from Youtube.
Not to mention his time in the ruc
 
  • Like
Reactions: tim
I’m not telling you who to talk to. I’m advising you to stop altogether for now because you’re going horribly wrong and you’re sounding very arrogant :facepalm:

Didn't come across as advice, it came across as censorious.
 
... that is at least a real answer.

Thanks... I think!


... if it can be done. but to do that means admitting there are problems.

Of course it's problematic when some of those within the left's natural constituency (i.e. the working class) undermine solidarity by holding abhorrent views. Whether that's Muslims who've been persuaded by clerics or racist workers who've been persuaded by right wing demagogues. Changing people's minds is a challenge, but there's no fundamental paradox which means the left can't welcome those from religious backgrounds or gay people.


... but what if from the other side the same thing is going on ie the left is trying to convert the Muslims from Islam to leftism, but the Muslims are also trying to convert leftists from Marxism to Islam. When i was in RESPECT, the SWP and independents thought they could win ordinary Muslims to Marxism, but it never happened. On the other hand, there were leftists who left socialism and converted to Islam, following the example of that extraordinary man George Galloway himself?, and Yvonne Ridley. just as you want to rid them of 'religious bigotry', they want to rid you of the 'atheist delusion'.

You're not really saying anything here. The left is no different from every current and historical political movement insofar as it faces a risk of losing people to other movements (or no movement). Like all of them, it needs to demonstrate why it's better than the alternative. In practical terms, there's stuff we can all do everyday e.g. local or workplace organising.
 
I realise that it is not possible to have a serious discussion on this topic, mainly because leftism is itself a religion and cannot tolerate rivals.

maybe i wasn't clear.

No maybe about it, teacher.

the problem i have is NOT with LGBT.
It is NOT with religious Jews
It is NOT with Muslims
It is NOT with Christians either.
It is NOT with ethnic minorities either.

If you say so.

the problem i have is with the left.
all of it, the anarchist left and the trot left, and Corbynistas etc.
The left is fundamentally dishonest and cannot take up some issues

Politics is fundamentally dishonest. If you're only just working that out, you spent too much time jerking your gherkin as a teenager.

the reason I posted the article wasn't to pick on a group, but just pointing out that the contradictions are too obvious.
It is not because I want it to be so, but the fact is that LGBT rights are not compatible with religion, in most cases.
to the extent that a community is religious, it tends to be against LGBT.
If Muslims gave up Islam, or Jews Judaism, Christians Christianity, then they would have no problem with LGBT. LGBT is accepted in the west to the extent the west has given up Christianity and become completely secular.

It is the religious ideology that is against LGBT.

And yet there are gay Muslims, Gay Jews, Gay Christians, all existing within their religious communities, because their communities don't care about their sexuality, despite what some joker 1300 (Islam), or 2,500 (Judaism), or 1,700 (Christianity) years ago said.
This would imply that it's not the ideology per se to blame, but rather, the way that some elements of those religious communities use FACETS of the ideology for their own ends.

ethnic minorities are more religious, because the societies they come from are religious.

That's a very poor generalisation, which appears to be based on your own preconceptions and prejudices.

if you can't see it then open your eyes, but i think there is a wilful blindness.

I'm not convinced you're bothering to think at all, you're merely regurgitating tropes, the like of which wouldn't be out of place in a right-wing red-top.

that isn't going to change anytime soon, because most people are not leftists by default and it is not obvious that leftism has any real answers any more than religion.

Both politics and religion are ideologies of a kind, but where as politics is supposed to deal with - in a democracy, anyway - finding answers through searching for solutions, religion claims to already have answers to any question that might occur to you. There's slightly more chance of politics giving you actual answers rather than religion, which will give you verities by the bushel.

Anarchist/Communist utopia = kingdom of heaven on earth. ie a fantasy.

Which misses an important point (unsurprising, given the lack of substance your witterings display)

"Utopia" is generally NOT what Anarchists, Communists, or even Anarchist Communists ( danny la rouge ) are looking for, it's a collective participative polity based around equality and equity. All too often, actual anarchist organisations don't display that, and are "pale, male and stale" collections of boss-class lifestylers role-playing at being Nestor Makhno, only without the courage or the desire for insurgency.

the fact is that Muslim parents in the article don't want LGBT ideas taught in school because the religion doesn't tolerate open homosexuality. It is not seen as a good thing.
Do those "Muslim parents" represent ALL Muslim parents to you? If that IS the case, then you're displaying prejudice, and (yet again) generalising.

HOW is the left going to interact with them? sooner or later, there will probably be an Islamic party that will take a chunk of the Labour Party's Muslim vote, because the fact is that Islam is incompatible with much progressive ideology inc. abortion etc. So are other religions, but the issue is framed differently and politicised differently.

Experience in other European countries with significant Muslim minorities, says otherwise. Many 2nd generation community members, even given heavy racism in some states, tend to secularise. For them religion becomes a remote observance, even when their parents are from devout roots.

what about white religious people? I think if they voice anti LGBT sentiment, they wouldn't be part of the left at all, they would be part of the (far) right.

I know plenty of devout Catholics and Protestants who are - pardon the pun - agnostic about LGBT, as they are about abortion. They acknowledge the difficulties of living in "the modern world", and act accordingly.
You make the mistake of seeing politics as being concomitant to one's faith. Very often it isn't, because religious communities are aware of the need to make politics a community issue, in order to help keep the community together, and preserve it. That often means being on the left, even when your religious ideology would supposedly place you on "the (far) right".

what i want to know is HOW the left will deal with this problem?
by denial and turning a blind eye pretending there is no problem?
attacking the person who brings up the problem as racist and homophobic?

A rational person (not yourself, then) would say "the problem is more complex and nuanced than you're projecting", and also "if people 'attack' you on certain issues, perhaps it's worth taking a look at your arguments, and how someone else might read them".

You're ignorant, you generalise, and you speak of religion and politics as if both have followings whose ideas and aspirations are homogeneous. That's because you're also disingenuous (if not downright dishonest), and know that if you argued from a basis where those followings where heterogeneous, your arguments (such as they are) would fall apart.
 
I think Red Cat is spot on.

There is a really serious issue at the heart of all this.

Social attitudes are not formed, complete, at birth they develop and are shaped and transmitted. Socially. Obviously. So it clearly isn't a private matter.

Parents obviously play a massive role in this.

As do s hooks. It's a major, though contested, function of schooling. Both explicit (phsee, citizenship, British values, prevent etc.) but implicit in the relationships between peers and between pupils and staff.

Working in education it's always saddening to see a child's first expressions of bigotry or intolerance being expressed in the overheard words of adults.

It's doesn't have to be that way.

My daughter, who goes to a "faith school" and on my wife's side has a devout Catholic family influence, as we saw above is still mercifully free of prejudice.

I overheard her playing one day (fairytales as it happens) quietly insisting that her scenario was fine to play because "of course girls can marry girls and boys can marry boys...we can both be Princesses!"
 
When did atheistic comments go from the relatively humane "sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions... the opium of the people" to less empathetic, less humanistic comments that amount to little more than saying "you're deluded, mentally deficient and fucked up"? :hmm:
 
When did atheistic comments go from the relatively humane "sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions... the opium of the people" to less empathetic, less humanistic comments that amount to little more than saying "you're deluded, mentally deficient and fucked up"? :hmm:

They sound more than a little like some other "arguments" we're hearing an awful lot of in the last couple of years.
 
No maybe about it, teacher.



If you say so.



Politics is fundamentally dishonest. If you're only just working that out, you spent too much time jerking your gherkin as a teenager.



And yet there are gay Muslims, Gay Jews, Gay Christians, all existing within their religious communities, because their communities don't care about their sexuality, despite what some joker 1300 (Islam), or 2,500 (Judaism), or 1,700 (Christianity) years ago said.
This would imply that it's not the ideology per se to blame, but rather, the way that some elements of those religious communities use FACETS of the ideology for their own ends.



That's a very poor generalisation, which appears to be based on your own preconceptions and prejudices.



I'm not convinced you're bothering to think at all, you're merely regurgitating tropes, the like of which wouldn't be out of place in a right-wing red-top.



Both politics and religion are ideologies of a kind, but where as politics is supposed to deal with - in a democracy, anyway - finding answers through searching for solutions, religion claims to already have answers to any question that might occur to you. There's slightly more chance of politics giving you actual answers rather than religion, which will give you verities by the bushel.



Which misses an important point (unsurprising, given the lack of substance your witterings display)

"Utopia" is generally NOT what Anarchists, Communists, or even Anarchist Communists ( danny la rouge ) are looking for, it's a collective participative polity based around equality and equity. All too often, actual anarchist organisations don't display that, and are "pale, male and stale" collections of boss-class lifestylers role-playing at being Nestor Makhno, only without the courage or the desire for insurgency.


Do those "Muslim parents" represent ALL Muslim parents to you? If that IS the case, then you're displaying prejudice, and (yet again) generalising.



Experience in other European countries with significant Muslim minorities, says otherwise. Many 2nd generation community members, even given heavy racism in some states, tend to secularise. For them religion becomes a remote observance, even when their parents are from devout roots.



I know plenty of devout Catholics and Protestants who are - pardon the pun - agnostic about LGBT, as they are about abortion. They acknowledge the difficulties of living in "the modern world", and act accordingly.
You make the mistake of seeing politics as being concomitant to one's faith. Very often it isn't, because religious communities are aware of the need to make politics a community issue, in order to help keep the community together, and preserve it. That often means being on the left, even when your religious ideology would supposedly place you on "the (far) right".



A rational person (not yourself, then) would say "the problem is more complex and nuanced than you're projecting", and also "if people 'attack' you on certain issues, perhaps it's worth taking a look at your arguments, and how someone else might read them".



You're ignorant, you generalise, and you speak of religion and politics as if both have followings whose ideas and aspirations are homogeneous. That's because you're also disingenuous (if not downright dishonest), and know that if you argued from a basis where those followings where heterogeneous, your arguments (such as they are) would fall apart.

no i;m not.
it is complex. i know that. So what? does anyone really expect a complex phd thesis on a thread. hardly
and you have no real answers or anything really.

if anyone has a different view to you, then they MUST be suspect of racism, homophobia etc etc

isnt that so?
the fact is anarchism is mainly a white movement. fact

there are black anarchists but not many.

i've noticed this.
likewise i've noticed ethnic minority groups, esp. asians. tend to more religious, at least culturally.
 
What a shitshow of a thread.

no i;m not.
it is complex. i know that. So what? does anyone really expect a complex phd thesis on a thread. hardly
and you have no real answers or anything really.

if anyone has a different view to you, then they MUST be suspect of racism, homophobia etc etc

isnt that so?
the fact is anarchism is mainly a white movement. fact

there are black anarchists but not many.

i've noticed this.
likewise i've noticed ethnic minority groups, esp. asians. tend to more religious, at least culturally.
'kinnel
 
I’m not telling you who to talk to. I’m advising you to stop altogether for now because you’re going horribly wrong and you’re sounding very arrogant :facepalm:

He always does, especially when he starts throwing out "I was the editor of a national newspaper", and I taught English", like that makes him King Shit of Turd Mountain. Fundamentally, he always argues in bad faith, because he's never open to admitting his views are incorrect. It's always everyone else who's wrong, in wookey-world.
 
The whole thread is really arrogant. Not sure I see a huge difference between anyone really, it's an excuse for a fight, because that's urban. I don't think anyone with very few exceptions actually gives a fuck about how we think about social attitudes with children. You'd think it wasn't worthy of political discussion.

I kind of give a fuck, because I worry about indoctrination - not that teaching kids about alternative relationships would turn them all LGBT, quite the opposite, that they would be indoctrinated into believing such things are fundamentally wrong.
Also, I think it needs to be stated that this doesn't just apply to parents and kids from religious communities - far from it. Everyone is capable of bigotry.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tim
He always does, especially when he starts throwing out "I was the editor of a national newspaper", and I taught English", like that makes him King Shit of Turd Mountain. Fundamentally, he always argues in bad faith, because he's never open to admitting his views are incorrect. It's always everyone else who's wrong, in wookey-world.
I love Wookey! I just think he’s taken a serious wrong swerve with considering himself better than the millions of people who have a faith. It’s not uncommon, but it does grate.
 
He always does, especially when he starts throwing out "I was the editor of a national newspaper", and I taught English", like that makes him King Shit of Turd Mountain. Fundamentally, he always argues in bad faith, because he's never open to admitting his views are incorrect. It's always everyone else who's wrong, in wookey-world.

I wouldn't proffer an opinion if I didn't think I was right. What a daft accusation!

The point about the Pink Paper is that I can go from being a politically active "alpha gay" to forgetting I am gay. On a thread touching on identity and its construction, that is quite relevant.

My views on religious fundamentalists, be they Orthodox Jews, fundie Xtians or hard-line Muslims is that they are my enemy. I wouldn't share breathing space with them, let alone compromise myself by validating their hatred as a valid opinion.
 
That graphic just goes to demonstrate what a self-absorbed, naval-gazing, narcissistic age we live in.

Narcissistic may be going a bit far, but self-absorbed definitely, and obsessed with sex. Our whole culture is obsessed with sex, and sexuality. I think we like to conflate love with sex then sublimate our search for love into a search for sex instead, because sex is easier to understand and control than love is .. and easier to live up to.

Anyway,

naval-gazing

signalman-roderick-powell-observes-two-tank-landing-ships-through-binoculars-37172b-1600.jpg


:D
 
no i;m not.
it is complex. i know that. So what? does anyone really expect a complex phd thesis on a thread. hardly
and you have no real answers or anything really.

More missing the point. I'll set it out for you:
There are no real answers, because life isn't a static thing, it's fluid, and that means that the "answers" are always changing, hence why religion and politics lose their relevance to people.

As for a "complex PhD thesis", I don't expect one from you. You should, however, be capable of mustering simple arguments. You haven't, as yet, displayed that ability.

if anyone has a different view to you, then they MUST be suspect of racism, homophobia etc etc

That's the kind of argument I'd expect from a dishonest child. Most people are self-aware enough to not go there. You, on the other hand...

isnt that so?
the fact is anarchism is mainly a white movement. fact

The UK is a "mainly" white country. The one proceeds from the other.

there are black anarchists but not many.

i've noticed this.

Why would there be "many" Black anarchists?
likewise i've noticed ethnic minority groups, esp. asians. tend to more religious, at least culturally.

So now, because it's been shown to be lacking, you change tack from your generalising argument, to one about tendencies, cultural tendencies at that.Good, perhaps we're getting somewhere, whether that's your enlightenment, or merely the revelation of your usual fundamental dishonesty.
 
Back
Top Bottom