LGBT in schools vs religious parents

[Wookey]

I love Wookey! I just think he’s taken a serious wrong swerve with considering himself better than the millions of people who have a faith. It’s not uncommon, but it does grate.

I haven't rejected faith, I was just lucky enough not to have had to inherit it from my parents like most people have.

One side of my family is Catholic and the other Protestant, and the schism between those religions has effected my entire life, so I come to it with baggage of which I'm really not ashamed.

Faith is bogus, imo. The gap between what we know and what we hope to be true..that's faith. And I reject it wholly.

ETA. I respect your opinion Edie so if I've taken a wrong swerve I will just back away from the thread, I don't have much to gain from it. And I don't understand a word Anton is saying so I'm probably not contributing much to what he thought his thread was going to be....!

 

[ElizabethofYork]

why shouldn't it be a discussion? because the far right certainly do highlight the seeming absurdity of some leftist positions. it would be better to find a way of dealing with it.

The term "leftist" tends to be used by right wingers and Americans, in my experience.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I love Wookey! I just think he’s taken a serious wrong swerve with considering himself better than the millions of people who have a faith. It’s not uncommon, but it does grate.

I dislike the bodies/churches/sects that purvey organised religion. I think that much is blatantly obvious in what I've posted in the last 16-17 years. That said, I don't think I'm somehow better or more intelligent than believers are because I don't believe, I just think we have different ways of explaining things to ourselves.

 

[TruXta]

Faith is bogus, imo. The gap between what we know and what we hope to be true..that's faith. And I reject it wholly.

That leaves quite a few things in the faith category then. I hope it's true that next week will see temperatures over 15 degrees, is that bogus? Yes it's unlikely, but am I bad person for hoping it to be true?

 

[NoXion]

Narcissistic may be going a bit far, but self-absorbed definitely, and obsessed with sex. Our whole culture is obsessed with sex, and sexuality. I think we like to conflate love with sex then sublimate our search for love into a search for sex instead, because sex is easier to understand and control than love is .. and easier to live up to.

Anyway,

People have always been into sex and sexuality. It's just that they tend to be more open about it these days.

I don't see why love is necessarily any less base than sex. It's another facet of our nature as social beings, it's not some mystical force or any of the other waffle that gets written about it by high-minded poetic types.

 

[TruXta]

I dislike the bodies/churches/sects that purvey organised religion. I think that much is blatantly obvious in what I've posted in the last 16-17 years. That said, I don't think I'm somehow better or more intelligent than believers are because I don't believe, I just think we have different ways of explaining things to ourselves.

Tell you what, while I mainly agree with that ^^^ I really struggle not to look down on people professing and believing the prosperity gospel and the whole dominionist strand of modern Christianity.

 

[Spymaster]

Faith is bogus, imo. The gap between what we know and what we hope to be true..that's faith. And I reject it wholly.

You can reject it without being a nasty dick about it. You're a nice bloke but you've let yourself down here.

 

[Pickman's model]

I haven't rejected faith [...]

Faith is bogus, imo. The gap between what we know and what we hope to be true..that's faith. And I reject it wholly.

sounds like a rejection to me.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I wouldn't proffer an opinion if I didn't think I was right. What a daft accusation!

That's not what I said, is it? I said you're never open to admitting that your view is incorrect.

The point about the Pink Paper is that I can go from being a politically active "alpha gay" to forgetting I am gay. On a thread touching on identity and its construction, that is quite relevant.

It's also, in my opinion, inaccurate. The thing about identity, as established by Goffman onwards, is that our identities are faceted, and that while facets recede when we're not using them, we never forget them, even for a moment. We can't forget them, all we can do is TRY to set them aside, but even doing that is an acknowledgement of them.

My views on religious fundamentalists, be they Orthodox Jews, fundie Xtians or hard-line Muslims is that they are my enemy. I wouldn't share breathing space with them, let alone compromise myself by validating their hatred as a valid opinion.

Thus rendering yourself different to them only in that you can articulate your hatred without reference to scripture.

 

[mojo pixy]

I don't see why love is necessarily any less base than sex. It's another facet of our nature as social beings, it's not some mystical force or any of the other waffle that gets written about it by high-minded poetic types.

Love means so many things though, and that's part of why sex is easier. It only really means one thing .. well, several things that boil down to one thing. Love is--

Well, exactly.

Also I didn't say sex is more base than love, just that it's easier to control and understand.

 

[eoin_k]

...
the fact is anarchism is mainly a white movement. fact

there are black anarchists but not many.
...

You don't sound like you've got out much since Galloway was an MP in Tower Hamlets? There might not be many black anarchists, but since the 2008 crisis the radical left has been a far from exclusively white European affair. Whatever their shortcommings, the 2010 students movement, sisters uncut, black lives matter, the independent cleaners' unions, migrant solidarity groups and contemporary antifascism have all reflected the ethnic diversity of cities in Britain.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Narcissistic may be going a bit far, but self-absorbed definitely, and obsessed with sex. Our whole culture is obsessed with sex, and sexuality. I think we like to conflate love with sex then sublimate our search for love into a search for sex instead, because sex is easier to understand and control than love is .. and easier to live up to.

Anyway,

How do you have photo taken from the deck of a Russian spy trawler, hmm?

 

[NoXion]

Love means so many things though, and that's part of why sex is easier. It only really means one thing .. well, several things that boil down to one thing. Love is--

Well, exactly.

I think the Greeks had it right when they came up with different names for different kinds of love. It's not as if I have the same feelings for my mother, my comrades, spicy food or my computer.

 

[ViolentPanda]

People have always been into sex and sexuality. It's just that they tend to be more open about it these days.

I don't see why love is necessarily any less base than sex. It's another facet of our nature as social beings, it's not some mystical force or any of the other waffle that gets written about it by high-minded poetic types.

I bet you'll be a barrel of laughs in 10 days time!

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think the Greeks had it right when they came up with different names for different kinds of love. It's not as if I have the same feelings for my mother, my comrades, spicy food or my computer.

Eros and Agape, IIRC.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Tell you what, while I mainly agree with that ^^^ I really struggle not to look down on people professing and believing the prosperity gospel and the whole dominionist strand of modern Christianity.

While I don't actively "look down" on people who need to believe that strand of Christianity, it does puzzle me that a sect so transparently about earthly riches can be taken to have anything to do with Christianity per se. Still, I suppose that some people will always need to believe that making obeisance to one aspect of a deity will bring them what they require, if hard work isn't producing it.

 

[mojo pixy]

I think the Greeks had it right when they came up with different names for different kinds of love. It's not as if I have the same feelings for my mother, my comrades, spicy food or my computer.

Michel de Montaigne did a good job going into that once upon a time.
EtA for anyone who hasn't, and wants to...
Old translation, De l'Amitié

Beats the rest of the thread about how intolerant them ethnics all are

 

[NoXion]

Eros and Agape, IIRC.

I think there were others as well, but I'd have to look it up to be sure.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You can reject it without being a nasty dick about it. You're a nice bloke but you've let yourself down here.

No no no. He's let you down, he's let me down, he's let himself down, but most of all he's let the class down.

I still remember that one being uttered by a teacher.

 

[8ball]

I think there were others as well, but I'd have to look it up to be sure.

Abednigo.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

So to take Anton at face value once more, I support the British Humanist Association and National Secular Society and their efforts to ensure that schools prepare children for a life in a diverse society as well as teaching them the usual stuff.

Some things cannot be optional and that includes sex education and an understanding of (if not agreement with) different belief systems and sexualities.

Agreed. Even if a child is bought up in a home where the parents are racist and homophobic, that child will come into contact with other people at school and will get a chance to perhaps start questioning the "facts" he's got from home.

The whole "home-schooling" thing is a real worry. I know of a few people who do it, and they're all fundy christians who don't want their children "corrupted" by being taught evolution, other religious viewpoints, or anything to do with sexuality at school. These children only ever meet other children being educated in the same way.

 

[Idris2002]

Agreed. Even if a child is bought up in a home where the parents are racist and homophobic, that child will come into contact with other people at school and will get a chance to perhaps start questioning the "facts" he's got from home.

The whole "home-schooling" thing is a real worry. I know of a few people who do it, and they're all fundy christians who don't want their children "corrupted" by being taught evolution, other religious viewpoints, or anything to do with sexuality at school. These children only ever meet other children being educated in the same way.

In Germany home-schooling is effectively illegal, and the Germans are right. The official legal position is something like "so that a parallel society shall not be formed", i.e. so wearers of the brown shirt can't keep their kids home from school and tell them what a great guy Adolf was.

 

[Spymaster]

The whole "home-schooling" thing is a real worry. I know of a few people who do it, and they're all fundy christians who don't want their children "corrupted" by being taught evolution, other religious viewpoints, or anything to do with sexuality at school. These children only ever meet other children being educated in the same way.

But do you agree with the state intervening and forcing other views on those children?

 

[Pickman's model]

In Germany home-schooling is effectively illegal, and the Germans are right. The official legal position is something like "so that a parallel society shall not be formed", i.e. so wearers of the brown shirt can't keep their kids home from school and tell them what a great guy Adolf was.

knowing fascists few of them would be articulate enough to inculcate that in their offspring

 

[chilango]

But do you agree with the state intervening and forcing other views in those children?

I believe one of the purposes of education should be to equip young people with the tools to question stuff. Including their own views.

 

[Pickman's model]

I believe one of the purposes of education should be to equip young people with the tools to question stuff. Including their own views.

 

[Idris2002]

 

[Idris2002]

knowing fascists few of them would be articulate enough to inculcate that in their offspring

Ah, if only we could rely on their stupidity.

 

[Pickman's model]

Ah, if only we could rely on their stupidity.

the difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits

 

[ElizabethofYork]

But do you agree with the state intervening and forcing other views on those children?

No, I don't believe in forcing views on children. Whether by the state or by the parents.

But by attending school, rather than being taught by their parents, at least those children will meet people from other backgrounds and with other views, which may then lead to them questioning what their parents are force-feeding them.