Leavers on the 'left' - Main arguments and analysis please...

[ItWillNeverWork]

I am probably going to abstain or spoil my ballot paper unless someone can give me a complelling reason to vote which nobody really has. I started out wanting to vote leave but the pro leave 'lexit' arguments do seem overly optimistic and unconvincing, i dont think all the remain voters are 'liberals' a lot are seriously worried about their jobs or loved ones who are eu nationals and to mind its as patronising to dismiss them as liberals than to dismiss leavers as UKIP style racists. I will see how i feel on the day which is a terrible way to decide.

Well I'm an outie and I'm not swelling with optimism for a Bright New Day. Quite the opposite, I don't expect much to change at all initially, either to the left or the right. What I do see in the medium to longer term, however, is an opening-up of the battlefield slightly. With one of the layers of unaccountable technocrats out the way, we can focus the fight on UK-based power. I think it was butchersapron that made a point above about how the "oh noes the torwies" narrative misses out one key factor - the capacity of labour to fight its corner. Don't think about this in terms of Boris, Farage or Gove and their place within the electoral process. Think about this in terms of picking our near-term opponents within a longer struggle. Is that opponent Brussels or Westminster? Both have to be fought, the question is in which order.

 

[stethoscope]

That was attempt to bribe voters who hate him! It even worked to some extent

Tbh, come remain or leave, I'm quite expecting him to jack things in reasonably soon and rake. It in on the after-dinner speaking circuit. He's stroking his ego today as the proud architect of all this and he's done very nicely out of his MEP salary and perks despite moaning about the EU. The jammy cunt.

 

[Biscuitician]

With regard to the EU doing nothing at all to help us: they voted to give food aid which the government rejected.

 

[bi0boy]

Lexiters ignore migrant workers according to this brief Indie op piece

 

[Wookey]

I'm really resenting being put in this silly position to be honest. Neither choice rocks my boat, and I'm still undecided even after more reading today.

Have enjoyed this piece from the Workers Solidarity Movement.

"The referendum opened with sections of the far left deciding to also support an Exit position, the so called Lexit (for Left-Exit). This appears to have been an electoral opportunist calculation that an Exit would damage the government, perhaps forcing an election and that in the election ‘the Party’ might make some minor gains. This is dressed up for public consumption in welfare state nostalgia and NHS protection as if the reality was anything other than the welfare state has been dismantled not by the EU but by successive domestic governments. And that the NHS is likewise targeted not by the EU but by the Tories. Those leading the mainstream Exit campaign are the same people who have argued against minimum wages and limiting working time. If Lexit was originally foolish opportunism choosing to continue to advocate a Lexit vote now that the reality of the campaign is clear is criminal stupidity."

And also Alistair Appleton, a Buddhist view:

"What terrifies me is the growing constriction of circles that Brexit hints at: closed borders, closed economy, closed minds. It’s an isolationist creed that finds echoes in Donald Trump and I believe it’s the very opposite of the thing that has always made Britain great: our openness to the world, to science, to trade, to diplomacy and to others. Voting to remain a part of a greater whole can only empower us. Closing doors will leave us to stagnate and founder."

And Prof. Michael Dougan, gives an interesting break-down of the EU law debate, very factual, explaining why still have our sovereignty.

 

[stethoscope]

A fucking buddhist proposing remain to 'part of a greater whole can only empower us'?! Its a fucking neoliberal superstate!

Besides, its not quite as simple to say NHS is only affected by our own government, although successive governments have of course increasingly privatised it - EU commissioning and procurement directives expose the NHS to market liberalisation too.

 

[stethoscope]

I am now reading up on the WSM though!

 

[Biscuitician]

I am now reading up on the WSM though!

Weston super Mare is a shithole

 

[treelover]

Well I'm an outie and I'm not swelling with optimism for a Bright New Day. Quite the opposite, I don't expect much to change at all initially, either to the left or the right. What I do see in the medium to longer term, however, is an opening-up of the battlefield slightly. With one of the layers of unaccountable technocrats out the way, we can focus the fight on UK-based power. I think it was butchersapron that made a point above about how the "oh noes the torwies" narrative misses out one key factor - the capacity of labour to fight its corner. Don't think about this in terms of Boris, Farage or Gove and their place within the electoral process. Think about this in terms of picking our near-term opponents within a longer struggle. Is that opponent Brussels or Westminster? Both have to be fought, the question is in which order.

Where is this mass army of dedicated leftists, activists, etc, civil society determined to fight for what is left of the welfare state, have you seen the turn out say for ATOS protests?

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Where is this mass army of dedicated leftists, activists, etc, civil society determined to fight for what is left of the welfare state, have you seen the turn out say for ATOS protests?

It's not an army yet but defeat of the EU status quo would require FUCKING DALEKS

 

[treelover]

Sorry, but for issues like the above, its phantom armies.

 

[Azrael]

It's this thread's consensus that the Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats is "neoliberal."

From their recent paper on employment:-

One of the lessons learnt from the economic crisis is that societies which are characterised by a high level of equality and investment in people do better in terms of growth and employment resilience. Fighting inequalities and enhancing social investment must therefore be guiding principles for a progressive social agenda with a strong and coordinated European Social Policy. Our vision of Social Europe is a paradigm shift towards an alternative social model based on solidarity, integration, social justice, a fair wealth distribution, gender equality, a high-quality public education system, quality employment and sustainable growth - a model that ensures equality and social protection, empowers vulnerable groups, enhances participation and citizenship and improves the living standards for all citizens. Binding social indicators as well as a strengthening of trade unions and social dialogue are essential in this context.

S&D have recently attacked the proposed TTIP for threatening workers' rights and encouraging privatization of public services.

That being so, in what substantive sense is S&D neoliberal?

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Where is this mass army of dedicated leftists, activists, etc, civil society determined to fight for what is left of the welfare state, have you seen the turn out say for ATOS protests?

I couldnt give a toss about 'dedicated leftists'. They are irrelevant and unreliable. They can stick to their mung beans, identity politics and Save the Snail campaigns for all I care. Labour will fight its own corner without them.

As for the stuff you mention, where are the fucking EU in stopping any of it? Vote Remain to give Bono a warm feeling inside. Vote Remain to pretend that all is well because Fabians and the IMF say so.

 

[brogdale]

It's this thread's consensus that the Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats is "neoliberal."

From their recent paper on employment:-


S&D have recently attacked the proposed TTIP for threatening workers' rights and encouraging privatization of public services.

That being so, in what substantive sense is S&D neoliberal?

OK, I'll play.
In the sense that they are members of the parliament of a superstate that is ideologically neoliberal and prepared to act as a hegemonic consolidator state and impose austerity at the behest of fincap.

 

[Azrael]

By what could charitably be called that reasoning, despite being packed with socialist parties and parties that're openly Marxist, the GUE/NGL is neoliberal.

Well, it's a POV.

 

[brogdale]

By what could charitably be called that reasoning, despite being packed with socialist parties and parties that're openly Marxist, the GUE/NGL is neoliberal.

Well, it's a POV.

Well, your question was worded in what sense.

 

[redsquirrel]

Yes how could anyone call a group that includes:
- the British Labour Party
- the PSOE
- the Irish Labour Party
- PASOK

as neo-liberal. After all these parties haven't been involved in attacking the welfare state, haven't implemented austerity agendas in their countries that have pushed people into poverty, haven't consistently passed measures that have increased inequality and attacked the conditions of the working class.

EDIT: And that's just the first four names that jumped out to me, the German SDP currently in coalition with Merkel, can obviously be added to the list. I'll admit I don't know too much about the Maltese Labour Party but I'd stick money on not a single one of those parties being anything other than neo-liberal.

 

[Biscuitician]

I'm starting to lean toward leave. I'm under no illusion it will make things shit, but given we want change maybe that's what's needed to kickstart some change. At the moment the opposition is just ineffective.

It's not a great argument, but alongside is the rejection of an authority that's not helping the working class

 

[TruXta]

Don't have the vote, was leave, now thinking sod the lots of yous.

 

[weltweit]

Don't have the vote, was leave, now thinking sod the lots of yous.

Why don't you have the vote TruXta?

 

[TruXta]

Why don't you have the vote TruXta?

Not a Brit, Irish nor commonwealth citizen.

 

[weltweit]

Not a Brit, Irish nor commonwealth citizen.

Oh, OK. I know a lot of people in that position, for example my ex wife has lived and worked in Britain for more than 20 years but she does not get a vote because she hasn't taken British citizenship. A lot of our mutual friends are couples one of whom are from the continent, they also don't get to vote.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Two Jacobin pieces arguing each side:

There Is No Left Exit | Jacobin

The Socialist Case for Leave | Jacobin

 

[agricola]

Probably going to vote leave. I look at the phalanx of politicians / celebrities for "Remain" and am appalled at almost all of them, and a successful Brexit will get Farage sacked. Also its pouring down.

 

[Wilhelmina.Trav]

Would love for Farage to be sacked that would make my year. I'm not for leave but one good pro for leave would mean that we keep our beautiful sterling.

Evey

 

[danny la rouge]

Would love for Farage to be sacked that would make my year. I'm not for leave but one good pro for leave would mean that we keep our beautiful sterling.

Evey

"Our beautiful sterling"?

I assume you're talking about the currency, rather than some metaphor about 'the family silver'? Why would you think the currency would change in the event of Remain? And why describe it as "our beautiful sterling"? It's a currency, not a family member.

 

[stethoscope]

I regularly pull a quid out of my purse and am overcome with emotion - sterling, it's just beautiful, look at it, all shiny, ma'ams head on it and everything.

Wait, I think it might be a forgery.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Wait, I think it might be a forgery.

So subtle I almost didn't see it

 

[Biscuitician]

As much as I think there is a case for exit from the capitalist institution, i don't feel comfortable having my vote in that regard used to legitimise the likes of Farage, Boris, IDS, Gove and the other cunts. So i'm provisionally deciding to spoil my ballot. I don't feel happy about it, but this whole shitshow is a shitshow.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

There Is No Left Exit | Jacobin

btw, in my opinion this is the best left comment piece on the EU ref I've read. I'd recommend anyone who is still on the fence or hasn't voted to read it!