Leavers on the 'left' - Main arguments and analysis please...

[beesonthewhatnow]

It's a shit basis for any decision though isn't it - okay, which one is worse?

But this is where I don't understand people who spoil their vote or don't bother.

Yes, having to choose which flavour of shit is better than the other is a crap choice. But it's the only one we have right now, so why not choose the less worse option

 

[Spymaster]

It will be the same after Remain, too.

Sure. But we won't have strengthened UKIP and the far right's position.

As noted using that logic you're siding with the war criminal Blair.

I don't care. I hate Farage, the BNP, and Nazi's, more than I hate Blair.

 

[treelover]

I don't think that's true. The official campaign was xenophobic, certainly.

Have a read at Kenan Malik:

"Remain campaigners warn of the ‘uncertainties’ that would be created by Britain leaving the EU. What they fail to recognize is that for many sections of the electorate, ‘uncertainty’ is what they feel now, and it is this that is driving their hostility to mainstream political institutions and to the EU."

BEYOND THE BREXIT DEBATE

The UK is now two nations, staring across a political chasm

Leave voters aren’t lemmings jumping off a cliff, and the left urgently needs to understand their choices


John Harris

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/23/united-kingdom-two-nations-political-chasm-left
[QUOTE]


Powerful piece by John Harris, he has made quite a journey.

 

[stethoscope]

I hear ya stethoscope the generalisation on either side is sloppy.... A lot of people I know have been saying things like 'better the devil you know' and rather begrudgingly conceeding to vote remain. How fucking awful that the weight of this non-choice has reduced us to this?

On the issue of the far right/anti immigrant/immigration/racism... Whilst it shouldn't be the only thing people engage with in their choice today, many people will simply not be able to risk it...it's in our DNA, formed a lot of our life experiences and therefore our politics...I seriously haven't heard or felt some of this shit in the air since the 70's and i'm in London. That isn't to say that you or others are overlooking or not feeling that too. I just wanted to make this point.

I know, I hear ya. I'm taking time away other than PMs because I'm too fucked off x

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But this is where I don't understand people who spoil their vote or don't bother.

Yes, having to choose which flavour of shit is better than the other is a crap choice. But it's the only one we have right now, so why not choose the less worse option

The test of any action, surely, is 'what would happen if everyone acted like this?' If everyone spoiled their vote, there would be a massive crisis. That everyone else isn't spoiling their vote isn't a reason not to yourself - you can only do your own tiny little bit to discredit the process.

 

[butchersapron]

The author of the piece used to post on here.

How sure of that are you?

I wonder if, in the light of his position that syrizia was right and its left critics wrong given that greece is now effectively an eu protectorate and syriza is its instrument of austerity, we might be allowed a little doubt about just how well the reads the eu and its intentions?

 

[Teaboy]

I'm a bit mystified that this is causing so much high emotion in some people. Given nothing is going to get any better regardless of the vote why such high passions?

I dunno. I see HSBC have just become the first bank to offer a mortgage below 1%, not exactly the actions of a company that is apparently worried by the outcome of today.

 

[two sheds]

The test of any action, surely, is 'what would happen if everyone acted like this?' If everyone spoiled their vote, there would be a massive crisis. That everyone else isn't spoiling their vote isn't a reason not to yourself - you can only do your own tiny little bit to discredit the process.

"From now on I'm thinking only of me."
Major Danby replied indulgently with a superior smile: "But, Yossarian, suppose everyone felt that way."
"Then," said Yossarian, "I'd certainly be a damned fool to feel any other way, wouldn't I?"

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Yes.

But that's the choice we've been given.

No that's what you've chosen to do; to avoid the underlying issues* and focus on the surface trappings...you could at least be honest about it.

Louis MacNeice

* I not demanding that anyone come to the same conclusions about those underlying issues, but they need to be addressed.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I'm a bit mystified that this is causing so much high emotion in some people. Given nothing is going to get any better regardless of the vote why such high passions?

Because it is important and most of us know we are being fucked over regardless?

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

The test of any action, surely, is 'what would happen if everyone acted like this?' If everyone spoiled their vote, there would be a massive crisis. That everyone else isn't spoiling their vote isn't a reason not to yourself - you can only do your own tiny little bit to discredit the process.

But everyone spoiling their vote will never, ever happen. I can't get past the feeling that if I spoil my ballot paper I'm actively helping Farage and his chums, because you know damn well all his supporters will be out there voting.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yes, that book did occur to me when I wrote that post. However, Yossarian is making a rather different point.

 

[Spymaster]

You like telling other people what they're thinking ('the vast majority of people who want to exit are xenophobes') ...

And you've stupidly taken that as a personal slight. Of course I didn't suggest that you (or anyone else here) are in "the vast majority".

... what they're doing ('anyone who votes "leave" is casting the same vote as Boris Johnson, UKIP, the BNP, Britain First, every neo Nazi in the country, and sundry other racist cunts')

Absolute FACT. How will your vote differ from theirs on the ballot paper?

Vote how you want, Louis. If we exit, it won't happen they way you or others here want it to.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

I'm a bit mystified that this is causing so much high emotion in some people. Given nothing is going to get any better regardless of the vote why such high passions?

I dunno. I see HSBC have just become the first bank to offer a mortgage below 1%, not exactly the actions of a company that is apparently worried by the outcome of today.

Perhaps because being called a xenophobe and a neo-nazi fellow traveller grates a bit...yep that could be it.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[Teaboy]

Because it is important and most of us know we are being fucked over regardless?

I dunno. I think in years to come we'll realise how little importance it all was. The same forces doing the same thing, its a sideshow. Remain wins and it will be business as usual. Leave wins and a series of deals will be done which leave us in a situation which will be strikingly similar to the one we are already in. Nothing must disrupt business, all must be done to protect the delicate nerves of the markets.

Needle returns to the start of the song..................

 

[Spymaster]

Perhaps because being called a xenophobe and a neo-nazi fellow traveller grates a bit...yep that could be it.

Except nobody has done that. You fucking idiot.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

That's a much better article than the one in Jacobin

The Jacobin piece makes the same argument:

Although Leave made immigration the centerpiece of its campaign, the Remain camp has certainly helped. The mainstream Remain boosters are desperate to avoid appearing too soft on migration.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

And you've stupidly taken that as a personal slight. Of course I didn't suggest that you (or anyone else here) are in "the vast majority".

Absolute FACT. How will your vote differ from theirs on the ballot paper?

Vote how you want, Louis. If we exit, it won't happen they way you or others here want it to.

So I'm not a xenophobe but I am a neo-nazi fellow traveller...and you're still being dishonest and refusing to engage in the substance of the EU choosing instead to induldge in play ground name calling.

Louis MacNeice

 

[Teaboy]

Perhaps because being called a xenophobe and a neo-nazi fellow traveller grates a bit...yep that could be it.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

Yeah that would do it I guess, if someone had called you that.

 

[Spymaster]

So I'm not a xenophobe but I am a neo-nazi fellow traveller...

Fuck off, Louis.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Anyone who votes 'remain' is casting the same vote as EU neoliberalism, Cameron, banks and financial capital, Osborne, anti-working class, etc.

See? How does that line of argument really work? I've become so frustrated with it being used all the way throughout.

Also, I fucking despise both the remain and leave camps and what a lot of both narratives stand for, but I'm still entitled to vote leave on my own specific left position, even though I realise its a complex and minority one.

I think I've had it with urban.

You're not allowed to leave.
I'm voting Staythescope

 

[sheothebudworths]

But everyone spoiling their vote will never, ever happen. I can't get past the feeling that if I spoil my ballot paper I'm actively helping Farage and his chums, because you know damn well all his supporters will be out there voting.

But that would indicate that you're not so torn as to which way to vote yourself as others clearly and understandably are.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Is it too much to ask that this thread not go the way of others? The name calling is unnecessary to say the least.

 

[Treacle Toes]

You're not allowed to leave.
I'm voting Staythescope

#Staythescope

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Except nobody has done that. You fucking idiot.

As an out voter how am I supposed to take 'Anyone who votes "leave" is casting the same vote as Boris Johnson, UKIP, the BNP, Britain First, every neo Nazi in the country, and sundry other racist cunts'?

Louis MacNeice

 

[JimW]

There's bound to be a few euro-Nazi third position types voting remain anyway.

 

[two sheds]

Ah but Spy doesn't mind them.


/scarpers

 

[Spymaster]

As an out voter how am I supposed to take 'Anyone who votes "leave" is casting the same vote as Boris Johnson, UKIP, the BNP, Britain First, every neo Nazi in the country, and sundry other racist cunts'?

I couldn't give a fuck how you take it. It's a fact.

You are not being asked "would you like to leave the union because of xxxxxxxx ?"

It's a binary choice, IN or OUT.

Johnson, UKIP, and Nazi's, will vote OUT.

 

[Steel Icarus]

I keep seeing this thread title and going

"Leavers on the left (if you're having a good time
Levers on the right (if you're looking to feel fine..." etc

 

[Treacle Toes]

There's a party over hereeeeeeeeeeeee, there's a party over thereeeeeeeeeeeeee...