Leavers on the 'left' - Main arguments and analysis please...

[redsquirrel]

Johnson, UKIP, and Nazi's, will vote OUT.

That would be the same Boris Johnson who you voted for twice for London Mayor.

 

[Spymaster]

That would be the same Boris Johnson who you voted for twice for London Mayor.

Once, I think. But yes.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Tbh, come remain or leave, I'm quite expecting him to jack things in reasonably soon and rake. It in on the after-dinner speaking circuit. He's stroking his ego today as the proud architect of all this and he's done very nicely out of his MEP salary and perks despite moaning about the EU. The jammy cunt.

Having known about two dozen Dulwich College alumni over the last 40 years, it's my sad duty to inform you that the majority of them are equally hypocritical. Except my mate Mark, who was just a thoroughgoing antisocial bastard instead.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Once, I think. But yes.

You are dead to me.

 

[JimW]

...

Johnson, UKIP, and Nazi's, will vote OUT.

So actually we should be pleased that their bigotry is making them unwittingly vote against their class interest and the neoliberal treaties. It's as much them voting with me and other assorted commies.

 

[two sheds]

Once, I think. But yes.

xenophobe

 

[Spymaster]

You are dead to me.

It was an anti-Livingstone vote. I voted for Khan last time.

 

[ViolentPanda]

"Our beautiful sterling"?

I assume you're talking about the currency, rather than some metaphor about 'the family silver'? Why would you think the currency would change in the event of Remain? And why describe it as "our beautiful sterling"? It's a currency, not a family member.

And most of the currency currently in circulation is fucking ugly. Almost as gruesome as that Bank of Scotland crap.

 

[two sheds]

We've already lost the true currency of Groats and Guineas when they decimalized in the 1970s. The one we have is a pale imitation.

 

[ska invita]

. I think it was butchersapron that made a point above about how the "oh noes the torwies" narrative misses out one key factor - the capacity of labour to fight its corner. Don't think about this in terms of Boris, Farage or Gove and their place within the electoral process. Think about this in terms of picking our near-term opponents within a longer struggle. Is that opponent Brussels or Westminster? Both have to be fought, the question is in which order.

There's a big issue of strategic voting here.

From what I can see many urban lexiters are doing so on principle and pretty much shrugging at any specific negative consequences, with a Its shit already so what's the difference? Maybe as an immigrant and whose felt the stress of being broke I feel more scared about that than others... But I am worried, and i think justifiably...

But to vote lexit in order to spoil for a fight in which labour might win, as you suggest, is totally reckless. If there was a strong labour movement showing any signs of being battle ready that would one thing, but it isn't. I'm no military strategist but you don't start new fights with no army in the wings.

The skill in warfare is picking your battles, and fighting the ones you might win, not charging headfirst in desperation... And that's what this feels like.

And it is a new fight... It would be a moment of disruption opening new fronts all around. I can't think of a worse time in my lifetime to have that fight.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

And most of the currency currently in circulation is fucking ugly. Almost as gruesome as that Bank of Scotland crap.

We should bring back the silver sixpence. They were lovely. Sexy, almost.

 

[ViolentPanda]

We should bring back the silver sixpence. They were lovely. Sexy, almost.

Sexy enough that I bought two, and made a set of cufflinks out of them.

 

[Spymaster]

So actually we should be pleased that their bigotry is making them unwittingly vote against their class interest and the neoliberal treaties.

They're not though. THEY are voting for Little England, regardless of what you are voting for.

 

[two sheds]

I got loads of silver threepences, they're lovely

 

[butchersapron]

A great way to help win a fight is to demand your already bigger better armed opponent ties your arms behind your back.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

There's a big issue of strategic voting here.

From what I can see many urban lexiters are doing so on principle and pretty much shrugging at any specific negative consequences, with a Its shit already so what's the difference? Maybe as an immigrant and whose felt the stress of being broke I feel more scared about that than others... But I am worried, and i think justifiably...

But to vote lexit in order to spoil for a fight in which labour might win, as you suggest, is totally reckless. If there was a strong labour movement showing any signs of being battle ready that would one thing, but it isn't. I'm no military strategist but you don't start new fights with no army in the wings.

The skill in warfare is picking your battles, and fighting the ones you might win, not charging headfirst in desperation... And that's what this feels like.

And it is a new fight... It would be a moment of disruption opening new fronts all around. I can't think of a worse time in my lifetime to have that fight.

If we don't ditch the EU now then we will have to fight them when they are in a stronger position. The EU is too fragile right now to attempt a punishment against us for leaving. Leave it 10 years and they may just see us a bug to crush like they did Greece. An example to be made of.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

I couldn't give a fuck how you take it. It's a fact.

You are not being asked "would you like to leave the union because of xxxxxxxx ?"

It's a binary choice, IN or OUT.

Johnson, UKIP, and Nazi's, will vote OUT.

Quite simply you're wrong. You are being asked would you like to stay in or leave the EU. The reasons for making that choice are up to us to decide on.

You have chosen to go with I don't like Boris (although some people seem to think you've had a soft spot for him in the past) so I'm going to vote with George.

I preferred to look at what the EU is for and what it has done - it's intention and its practice if you like.

The fact that you can't see that there would be lots of different ways to choose between in and out, and that some of these might be better than others is just odd. Although having just seen you're 'it was an anti-Livingstone vote' comment, you are at least consistently blinkered.

Louis MacNeice

 

[JimW]

They're not though. THEY are voting for Little England, regardless of what you are voting for.

But as you say, it's in/out and that will also be a consequence of their vote regardless. I don't dismiss the fears about a short term boost to the right but it does come down to the choice on offer.

 

[Spymaster]

I preferred to look at what the EU is for and what it has done - it's intention and its practice if you like.

Good stuff. Well done. Knock yourself out.

You're crossing the same box.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

If we don't ditch the EU now then we will have to fight them when they are in a stronger position. The EU is too fragile right now to attempt a punishment against us for leaving. Leave it 10 years and they may just see us a bug to crush like they did Greece. An example to be made of.

The UK is far too big a country/economy for the EU to ever seriously consider punishing it for leaving the EU. In ten years' time, who knows what state the EU will be in? Do you see signs that it is bouncing back from its fragile state? I don't - in fact, its actions in Greece and elsewhere indicate the opposite to me.

 

[agricola]

There's a big issue of strategic voting here.

From what I can see many urban lexiters are doing so on principle and pretty much shrugging at any specific negative consequences, with a Its shit already so what's the difference? Maybe as an immigrant and whose felt the stress of being broke I feel more scared about that than others... But I am worried, and i think justifiably...

But to vote lexit in order to spoil for a fight in which labour might win, as you suggest, is totally reckless. If there was a strong labour movement showing any signs of being battle ready that would one thing, but it isn't. I'm no military strategist but you don't start new fights with no army in the wings.

The skill in warfare is picking your battles, and fighting the ones you might win, not charging headfirst in desperation... And that's what this feels like.

And it is a new fight... It would be a moment of disruption opening new fronts all around. I can't think of a worse time in my lifetime to have that fight.

If not now, when the opportunity actually exists, when? Does the EU have to get into an even worse state before the way it does things is challenged?

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Good stuff. Well done. Knock yourself out.

You're crossing the same box.

Are you scared of going beyond the rationale of 'I like Boris less than I like Dave so I'll vote with Dave, but last time I liked Boris more than I liked Ken so I voted Boris'? What would happen if you looked into the history and practice of the EU rather than running some sort of weird political beauty contest? Be brave it won't hurt...you might even find you enjoy it.

Louis MacNeice

 

[danny la rouge]

And most of the currency currently in circulation is fucking ugly. Almost as gruesome as that Bank of Scotland crap.

Our sweet, darling bits of paper, apples of my eye? How dare you!

 

[Spymaster]

But as you say, it's in/out and that will also be a consequence of their vote regardless.

But they don't care about that.

Of the right wing Brexiteers there are average Joe xenophobes, and posh xenophobes. The average Joe can't see much further than "coming over her taking our jobs" and the posh crowd have more than enough money to ride out the storm when the economy tanks.

I don't think the left will form a government here in the next 10 years. That means that any EU exit will be Tory led and done on right wing terms to benefit right wing people. Because they will control it. They will fix any divisions and strengthen.

 

[Spymaster]

Be brave it won't hurt...you might even find you enjoy it.

Fuck off, Louis. Go and put your cross in the same box as Nick Griffin will be.

Off you go.

 

[treelover]

"David Cowling, the BBC’s head of political research, in an internal memo…

“It seems to me that the London bubble has to burst if there is to be any prospect of addressing the issues that have brought us to our current situation. There are many millions of people in the UK who do not enthuse about diversity and do not embrace metropolitan values yet do not consider themselves lesser human beings for all that. Until their values and opinions are acknowledged and respected, rather than ignored and despised, our present discord will persist. Because these discontents run very wide and very deep and the metropolitan political class, confronted by them, seems completely bewildered and at a loss about how to respond (“who are these ghastly people and where do they come from?” doesn’t really hack it). The 2016 EU referendum has witnessed the cashing in of some very bitter bankable grudges but I believe that, throughout this 2016 campaign, Europe has been the shadow not the substance.”

No link, but surprising for the BBC

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Fuck off, Louis. Go and put your cross in the same box as Nick Griffin will be.

Off you go.

I suggest a bit of thinking and you tell me to fuck off. I think I'll leave it there.

Louis MacNeice

 

[Spymaster]

I think I'll leave it there.

Good. Fuck off and away with you.

 

[CNT36]

That's a much better article than the one in Jacobin

It's definitely worth reading for puncturing the idea that a Remain vote is any less anti-immigrant than a Leave one.

Anybody else had trouble getting onto the Jacobin website lately? I haven't been able to get it to load for 2 weeks and I've tried a several computers.

 

[redsquirrel]

Anybody else had trouble getting onto the Jacobin website lately? I haven't been able to get it to load for 2 weeks and I've tried a several computers.

Which website, Jacobin or Malik's? Either way I had no problem get accesses