Leavers on the 'left' - Main arguments and analysis please...

[Biscuitician]

If we leave we give legitimacy to racist scum who manipulate working class inaction and isolation. If we stay we do the same because those same people will continue to feel marginalised and that they are not listened to. There is no fucking correct position here at all

 

[inva]

btw, in my opinion this is the best left comment piece on the EU ref I've read. I'd recommend anyone who is still on the fence or hasn't voted to read it!

that doesn't say a lot for the quality of the debate...

the voice of a left cowering from the mob in its (fantasy) institutions, with seemingly no conception of a working class that is anything other than some reactionary mass shaped by the right. A vote for remain is also a victory for the right, but that seems to warrant little examination. They even title their anti exit bit 'Denying the Right a Victory' - Cameron, Osborne, the EU, IMF are the left, or maybe the neutral centre? In fact, the arguments they level against leaving the EU could largely be used against remaining.

"Whatever the intentions of Lexit voters, they will place a cross in the same box on the ballot paper as everyone else voting Leave."
- oh no!

"It seems unlikely that Cameron would survive the referendum’s defeat, and the figure poised to replace him as prime minister, many commentators agree, is Boris Johnson"
- oh no!

the quote from Paul Mason is vacuous bollocks. the pro-exit tory right is 'seeking' an anti-working class agenda - whoa! What is Cameron 'seeking'?

nah, not convinced.

 

[Wilhelmina.Trav]

Thank you for your response, Danny. I say "beautiful sterling' because the currency means a lot to many Brit - it's an important part of our history n who we are, in my opinion. I feel that they may try to change the currency as they have tried for years to but have not succeeded. In faxt I remember while ago we were going to have a referendum to decide whether or not to change to the Euro currency. Like I said I've votes remain (just now) but this would be my pro point for leaving the EU.

Evey

 

[redsquirrel]

that doesn't say a lot for the quality of the debate...

Agreed it's a terrible article.

Look at this bullshit

And so, a vote for Lexit is still a vote for Brexit — and all the xenophobic fearmongering the debate has produced.

It's just more of the vote Leave=racism crap that has been peddled from the start.

But the clearest evidence that it's worthless is the complete lack of any mention of the working class, it's all about the "Left" and the "Right".

A vote for Leave is a vote for the political forces dominant in the Leave campaign

It's completely focussed on political parties or groups, there's no discussion of the only group that can actually change this world for the better.

It's a prefect example of what BA's was talking about on page 5 of this thread.

 

[YouSir]

btw, in my opinion this is the best left comment piece on the EU ref I've read. I'd recommend anyone who is still on the fence or hasn't voted to read it!

On both sides there's an endorsement for the right, on both sides there's the potential to further their control whichever face they slap on it. Voting out of fear of their potential is, to me, a capitulation, an acceptance that the left is dead and all that's left is choosing who they want to deconstruct the tattered remnants of what centuries of struggle have achieved. If I accepted that decision then I wouldn't bother voting at all, which is a temptation, but I don't. The right is the right, the struggle against them continues whatever the result is by tomorrow, neither way will make it easier for us.

What we can do though is vote on the EU, on the actual issue that this referendum is supposed to be about. We can vote on what it's worth as an institution, we can vote on whether we want to be part of it. We can look at it's political agenda as a whole, the positions of it's member states (governments), we can look at it's actions in Greece, in dealing with Turkey, in dealing with refugees. That's the one thing we have a unique opportunity to do, vote on whether we should be part of a union that is dominated by Capital, which is deeply unhumanitarian and which is just as right in it's base interests as any national party. Everything else is a matter of ongoing struggle, that one question, this one vote though is our sole chance to make that decision.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I wonder how many of the 'don't knows' are basically: 'don't give a shit' or 'fuck whats on offer' when polled. And so, they're not neccessarily going to be converted to anything.

I am a 'fuck what's on offer' person, I feel frustrated, angry and patronised by the whole fucking thing. Although I do feel the responsibility to engage with and understand the choice we are being offered. Shit sandwich or shit on a sharp stick?

I have talked about this so much over the last few weeks I am giddy with it. What has been interesting to me is just how many people I have spoken to in the family and work etc feel like I do, many of which are not going to bother voting because either they don't feel they understand the choice enough, they are disgusted by the rhetoric on both sides or they can't get they heads around having some many of the main parties (Lab and Con) on both sides.

Take out the NOT so little point of much of the Leave campaign being fueled by some seriously horrible anti-immigration/immigrant agenda, what people seem to want to know is how can both campaigns being claiming to have the same interests? Workers rights, the NHS etc...

Personally, I know that I haven't made my decision yet...that will happen when I go to the polling station later today. I am off work today so will spend my morning as I had planned by reading here/articles and the watching the videos I haven't had a chance to watch this week whilst at work.

 

[Spymaster]

For Leave:

1. The first step towards taking back full democratic control, potentially, of our interests; an end to unelected central bureaucracies. Worthless though f further decentralisation of power from Westminster isn't pushed for
2. The EU is so broken that IMO it is probably impossible to fix
3. Endemic economic and political corruption in Brussels; failure to sign off any transparent accounts for decades; bunging 2 billion of EU taxpayers cash to a tinpot despot in Turkey;
4. related to the last point, catastrophic mishandling of refugee crisis;
5. TTIP: no thanks
6. regardless of Thursday's result, the EU is veering in a really concerning far-right direction; witness the bullying of the central bureaucrcy by the Visegrad group over refugees and the EU's tacit approval of razor wore fences and neo-fascist persecution of refugees in Bulgaria and Hungary;
7. The merciles bullying of and fiscal enslavement for generations to come, of Greece
8. The previous refusla to respect democratic referendum results in the Republic of Ireland
9. Staggering lack of competence; the appointment of an utter nonentity like Catherine Ashton on a huge salary to be the EU foreign minister; EU subsequently serially humiliated on the international stage by lack of ministerial capacity;
10. Enoromous growth of neoliberal /corporate influence at EU level since the turn of the century. Ten years ago it was possible to see the EU as some kind of social-democratic bulwark against loony right wing local interests. Not any more.
11. Slightly out there but; if we vote OUT, UKIP are finished; mission accomplished. Old Labour and other working class voters currently lending them their votes may decide to turn elsewhere.
12. having lived in the Balkans for quite a while, and seeing the EU from that perspective; any pretence that the EU is a generous and non-malign actor, from that persepctive, is laughable. In 2014 the EU High representative, Valentin Inzko, would have sent in EU tanks to restore the Dayton order in Bosnia, if the popular protests and democratic plenums looked like they would gain sufficient traction to sweep away the corrupt local vassals of the international community there.

And all that will be improved by exiting ...... how exactly?

Giving Brussels a bloody nose is one thing; cutting your nuts off whilst doing it is something else.

Let's be absolutely honest. The vast majority of people who want to exit are xenophobes.

Anyone who votes "leave" is casting the same vote as Boris Johnson, UKIP, the BNP, Britain First, every neo Nazi in the country, and sundry other racist cunts.

I'm going to vote to deny people like that a victory, and go "remain".

 

[Jeff Robinson]

that doesn't say a lot for the quality of the debate...

the voice of a left cowering from the mob in its (fantasy) institutions, with seemingly no conception of a working class that is anything other than some reactionary mass shaped by the right. A vote for remain is also a victory for the right, but that seems to warrant little examination. They even title their anti exit bit 'Denying the Right a Victory' - Cameron, Osborne, the EU, IMF are the left, or maybe the neutral centre? In fact, the arguments they level against leaving the EU could largely be used against remaining.

"Whatever the intentions of Lexit voters, they will place a cross in the same box on the ballot paper as everyone else voting Leave."
- oh no!

"It seems unlikely that Cameron would survive the referendum’s defeat, and the figure poised to replace him as prime minister, many commentators agree, is Boris Johnson"
- oh no!

the quote from Paul Mason is vacuous bollocks. the pro-exit tory right is 'seeking' an anti-working class agenda - whoa! What is Cameron 'seeking'?

nah, not convinced.

I don't think that's a fair synopsis of the article's argument. The author doesn't suggest that the EU is a leftwing entity, and in fact concedes all the lexit arguments against it, including the fact that it is unlikely that it can be reformed. He also acknowledges what is obvious to everyone on here: that both the Remain and Exit camps are dominated by the right. He's simply making a lesser evil argument that the likely consequences of a leave vote will be worse than a remain vote and that it will lead to a further shift to the right in British politics. I think redsquirrel raises a fair criticism when he notes the article's 'complete lack of any mention of the working class, it's all about the "Left" and the "Right".' But nevertheless, shifts to the right in the political landscape have historically created worse conditions for the working class, as well as more racism and hostility to migrants. I think the Ewa Jasiewicz article posted above highlights these dangers well, especially in relation to EU migrant workers.

 

[frogwoman]

I spoilt my ballot paper in the end. Maybe it was the wrong thing to do but at least I haven't made shit worse.

 

[danny la rouge]

Let's be absolutely honest. The vast majority of people who want to exit are xenophobes.

I don't think that's true. The official campaign was xenophobic, certainly.

Have a read at Kenan Malik:

"Remain campaigners warn of the ‘uncertainties’ that would be created by Britain leaving the EU. What they fail to recognize is that for many sections of the electorate, ‘uncertainty’ is what they feel now, and it is this that is driving their hostility to mainstream political institutions and to the EU."

BEYOND THE BREXIT DEBATE

 

[sheothebudworths]

Rutita1 Why the Morning Star supports a Leave vote

(I've half-heartedly gone remain but very much feeling, as you say, that neither is a remotely satisfactory choice)

 

[Louis MacNeice]

And all that will be improved by exiting ...... how exactly?

Giving Brussels a bloody nose is one thing; cutting your nuts off whilst doing it is something else.

Let's be absolutely honest. The vast majority of people who want to exit are xenophobes.

Anyone who votes "leave" is casting the same vote as Boris Johnson, UKIP, the BNP, Britain First, every neo Nazi in the country, and sundry other racist cunts.

I'm going to vote to deny people like that a victory, and go "remain".

Fuck off! That's fuck right off with your stupid generalisation and fuck right off with your individual insult.

Or if you prefer, let's say that 'anyone who votes remain is casting the same vote as Tony Blair and George Osborne responsible for war crimes abroad and murderous austerity at home'.

Of course it isn't true, but hopefully it shows what a shit way of arguing you've chosen.

Louis MacNeice

 

[Treacle Toes]

Thanks sheothebudworths, i'll put that in the queue, I have a pot of coffee and will no doubt be shaking with fucking rage and caffeine as I slope off down the hill to vote/or not later.

 

[sheothebudworths]

 

[stethoscope]

Anyone who votes "leave" is casting the same vote as Boris Johnson, UKIP, the BNP, Britain First, every neo Nazi in the country, and sundry other racist cunts.

Anyone who votes 'remain' is casting the same vote as EU neoliberalism, Cameron, banks and financial capital, Osborne, anti-working class, etc.

See? How does that line of argument really work? I've become so frustrated with it being used all the way throughout.

Also, I fucking despise both the remain and leave camps and what a lot of both narratives stand for, but I'm still entitled to vote leave on my own specific left position, even though I realise its a complex and minority one.

I think I've had it with urban.

 

[Biscuitician]

What's wrong with the Paul Mason quote? Isn't that an accurate representation of what the tories would try to do?

 

[two sheds]

Anyone who votes 'remain' is casting the same vote as EU neoliberalism, Cameron, banks and financial capital, Osborne, anti-working class, etc.

See? How does that line of argument really work? I've become so frustrated with it being used all the way throughout.

Also, I fucking despise both the remain and leave camps and what a lot of both narratives stand for, but I'm still entitled to vote leave on my own specific left position, even though I realise its a complex and minority one.

I think I've had it with urban.

Please don't, it's only a couple of people saying that. People voting Leave on urban aren't voting it for the same reasons Johnson & Gove & Farage. The great majority of posters recognize that.

 

[sheothebudworths]

Aw, don't do that steph!
I TOTALLY get your position, fwiw!

 

[Spymaster]

if you prefer, let's say that 'anyone who votes remain is casting the same vote as Tony Blair and George Osborne responsible for war crimes abroad and murderous austerity at home'.

Anyone who votes 'remain' is casting the same vote as EU neoliberalism, Cameron, banks and financial capital, Osborne, anti-working class, etc.

Up to you.

I know what I think is worse.

 

[inva]

I don't think that's a fair synopsis of the article's argument. The author doesn't suggest that the EU is a leftwing entity, and in fact concedes all the lexit arguments against it, including the fact that it is unlikely that it can be reformed. He also acknowledges what is obvious to everyone on here: that both the Remain and Exit camps are dominated by the right. He's simply making a lesser evil argument that the likely consequences of a leave vote will be worse than a remain vote and that it will lead to a further shift to the right in British politics. I think redsquirrel raises a fair criticism when he notes the article's 'complete lack of any mention of the working class, it's all about the "Left" and the "Right".' But nevertheless, shifts to the right in the political landscape have historically have created worse conditions for the working class, as well as more racism and hostility to migrants. I think the Ewa Jasiewicz article posted above highlights these dangers well, especially in relation to EU migrant workers.

but fails to examine the likely consequences of a remain vote. it's seems like empty stuff - society is a blank slate acted on by whichever politicians etc win in their factional struggles, a top down view. Yeah, the official leave campaign is vile.

the article reads to me like a total surrender - an admission that the eu is shit, but nothing else is possible.

 

[sheothebudworths]

Up to you.

I know what I think is worse.

It's a shit basis for any decision though isn't it - okay, which one is worse?

 

[Spymaster]

Please don't, it's only a couple of people saying that. People voting Leave on urban aren't voting it for the same reasons Johnson & Gove & Farage.

Not on Urban they're not.

But regardless of their reasons, they are putting their cross in the same box. The left will not get their way (whatever it is) after a Brexit. It will be dictated by the right.

 

[Spymaster]

It's a shit basis for any decision though isn't it - okay, which one is worse?

Yes.

But that's the choice we've been given.

 

[two sheds]

Not on Urban they're not.

But regardless of their reasons, they are putting their cross in the same box. The left will not get their way (whatever it is) after a Brexit. It will be dictated by the right.

It will be the same after Remain, too. As noted using that logic you're siding with the war criminal Blair.

 

[treelover]

btw, in my opinion this is the best left comment piece on the EU ref I've read. I'd recommend anyone who is still on the fence or hasn't voted to read it!

The author of the piece used to post on here.

 

[redsquirrel]

I don't think that's true. The official campaign was xenophobic, certainly.

Have a read at Kenan Malik:

"Remain campaigners warn of the ‘uncertainties’ that would be created by Britain leaving the EU. What they fail to recognize is that for many sections of the electorate, ‘uncertainty’ is what they feel now, and it is this that is driving their hostility to mainstream political institutions and to the EU."

BEYOND THE BREXIT DEBATE

That's a much better article than the one in Jacobin

Remain campaigners warn of the ‘uncertainties’ that would be created by Britain leaving the EU. What they fail to recognize is that for many sections of the electorate, ‘uncertainty’ is what they feel now, and it is this that is driving their hostility to mainstream political institutions and to the EU.
.....
Critics of the EU have certainly promoted noxious arguments about immigration, from Michael Gove’s warnings about a Turkish invasion to Nigel Farage’s ‘Breaking Point’ poster. But supporters of the EU are as responsible for creating an anti-immigration climate. It was Gordon Brown who claimed Labour policy as ‘British jobs for British workers’. It is David Cameron who has led a campaign against ‘benefit tourists’, despite the government’s own Migration Advisory Committee insisting that there is ‘little evidence to support the so-called welfare magnet hypothesis as a migration driver across EU countries’.

It's definitely worth reading for puncturing the idea that a Remain vote is any less anti-immigrant than a Leave one.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Up to you.

I know what I think is worse.

You like telling other people what they're thinking ('the vast majority of people who want to exit are xenophobes'), what they're doing ('anyone who votes "leave" is casting the same vote as Boris Johnson, UKIP, the BNP, Britain First, every neo Nazi in the country, and sundry other racist cunts') and now what they are writing.

Try to read and understand what I wrote. I was explicitly arguing against the idea of choosing on the basis of the relative cuntitude of 'celebrity' endorsements ; that is your 'easy on the grey cells' and easily ridiculed way of making up your mind.

Louis MacNeice

 

[Treacle Toes]

Anyone who votes 'remain' is casting the same vote as EU neoliberalism, Cameron, banks and financial capital, Osborne, anti-working class, etc.

See? How does that line of argument really work? I've become so frustrated with it being used all the way throughout.

Also, I fucking despise both the remain and leave camps and what a lot of both narratives stand for, but I'm still entitled to vote leave on my own specific left position, even though I realise its a complex and minority one.

I think I've had it with urban.

I hear ya stethoscope the generalisation on either side is sloppy.... A lot of people I know have been saying things like 'better the devil you know' and rather begrudgingly conceeding to vote remain. How fucking awful that the weight of this non-choice has reduced us to this?

On the issue of the far right/anti immigrant/immigration/racism... Whilst it shouldn't be the only thing people engage with in their choice today, many people will simply not be able to risk it...it's in our DNA, formed a lot of our life experiences and therefore our politics...I seriously haven't heard or felt some of this shit in the air since the 70's and i'm in London. That isn't to say that you or others are overlooking or not feeling that too. I just wanted to make this point.

 

[redsquirrel]

It will be the same after Remain, too. As noted using that logic you're siding with the war criminal Blair.

And with the Tories, and with Clegg and the LibDems too

 

[inva]

I have talked about this so much over the last few weeks I am giddy with it.

I reckon I've written more over the last couple of days here than I ever have since leaving school
it's surprisingly tiring