Leavers on the 'left' - Main arguments and analysis please...

[Louis MacNeice]

A question for the committed exiters, do you think the total destruction of the eu would be a good thing? Should every country leave do you think?

Seeing as those arguing for leave are doing so on the grounds of the EU being an irredeemably pro- capitalist club, what do you think the answer might be? For me the demise of the EU would be a good thing.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[Biscuitician]

in what i've quoted you've said there's only the right wing technocrats of the eu holding back the tory tide. it's not true. you said you haven't erased the resistance of working class people so I asked where it is in your formulation.

Because I was talking about the government. I really don't understand why you would assume I'm oblivious to the fact people are opposed to them.

 

[inva]

Because I was talking about the government. I really don't understand why you would assume I'm oblivious to the fact people are opposed to them.

but you've dismissed their oposition (and it's much more than that of course) because without the eu the government can do whatever it wants according to you.

 

[Biscuitician]

but you've dismissed their oposition (and it's much more than that of course) because without the eu the government can do whatever it wants according to you.

I haven't dismissed their opposition and for the record moving forward I don't dismiss their opposition.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Scotland then vote to leave the UK, Wales follow, tory rule for England until the sun swallows up our solar system.

Because that's how history works isn't it...what you have is what you're stuck with. I'm not sure that Scottish Unionists and Conservatives or Labour for that matter would agree with you.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[inva]

I haven't dismissed their opposition and for the record moving forward I don't dismiss their opposition.

so do you agree with this that you posted or not:
"but without even that, our government is going to go full tilt and take everything"

as I said, where is the working class? where are the demands and expectations and reality of life that constrains the government? where are the rights we have won? where is the continuing fight today that has achieved real things? we're not a blank slate, they can't do whatever they want, never have been able to and never will.

 

[butchersapron]

Because that's how history works isn't it...what you have is what you're stuck with. I'm not sure that Scottish Unionists and Conservatives or Labour for that matter would agree with you.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

I doubt the scottish tories imagined ever being effectively wiped out after the 1955 election.

Wider point here, one that any discussion of left positions needs to be very very clear on - political parties are not capital. They might manage and seek to legitimise capital or a particular fraction of capital (and worse some just appear to equate tories and capital) but they are not capital itself. So election results are not the be all and end all here - or they should not be. Oh yeah when resquirrel says labour he doesn't man The Labour Party,

 

[Biscuitician]

so do you agree with this that you posted or not:
"but without even that, our government is going to go full tilt and take everything"

as I said, where is the working class? where are the demands and expectations and reality of life that constrains the government? where are the rights we have won? where is the continuing fight today that has achieved real things? we're not a blank slate, they can't do whatever they want, never have been able to and never will.

I'm not sure where this conversation is going, you seem to want to fight me. I didn't come here looking for a fight.

Yes I stand by that statement.

I also stand by what I just said to you: that I recognise and support opposition to this government.

Those are not incongruous positions and I cannot see how you can think that

 

[inva]

I'm not sure where this conversation is going, you seem to want to fight me. I didn't come here looking for a fight.

Yes I stand by that statement.

I also stand by what I just said to you: that I recognise and support opposition to this government.

Those are not incongruous positions and I cannot see how you can think that

alright no worries as we don't seem to be getting anywhere I'll leave it there

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Reading mostly (but also Bristol, North Wales and other places I spend time).

Obviously most everyone is aware of the referendum and and has their views on it, but its not a subject for daily conversation except for the frothing liberals.

My parents, committed Brexiters both and always keen to try and goad me into a row about politics have only mentioned it once once or twice.

At work, it's really only mentioned in passing, and then by the liberals worrying.

Down the pub, we have't really talked about it much. A couple are Labour/Remain activists (afaik) but other than them and a braying Tory boy Brexiter that I had the misfortune to chat to the other week I've no real idea how people there are voting.

Up on the muesli mountain In Brighton it feels like I'm in a minority of one as a leaver. This was also true at a recent family 80th birthday, where my opposition to the EU was met with open disbelief and some disgust/hostility; this was an overwhelmingly north London, Labour voting, degree and post-grad educated crowd. However, sat in a YHA in Surrey last night and the five of us watching Spain v Croatia were all leavers; more incredibly I wasn't the only left leaver...and no one had a good word to say about any of the politicians involved in the various campaigns.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[danny la rouge]

I think that's far too kind to the liberal remain camp. Most liberal remainers that I have come across are pro-EU simply because they've benefitted from things like the free movement of labour. They have no real criticisms to make of the EU.

Incidentally, my union also supports Remain and gives free movement of labour as a reason: it benefits members to be able to move within the EU more easily and cheaply (no need for visas and so on). They emailed me this morning to make exactly that point.

That's a tangible practical benefit, and not an abstract concept like talk of treaties encoding neoliberalism. Even if you don't travel for work, you might go on holiday. It's reasons like this that I doubt the result will be as close as polls suggest. (But then, as I say, I can't really judge the Leave sentiment, because I'm not experiencing it first hand).

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Because that's how history works isn't it...what you have is what you're stuck with

*shrugs*

History to me suggests exactly that. Things seemingly change as various ideologies come and go, yet somehow those at the top are still crapping on those below and from an ever increasing height.

 

[steeplejack]

It's far from certain that a Leave vote would

1. trigger a second independence referendum in Scotland and that
2. even if it did, that the vote would be in favour of independence.
3. Nicola Sturgeon argued in an opinion piece on Sunday that a successful indyref was more likely in the future, with a Remain vote.
4. There was a poll somewhere recently suggesting that Scots voters, even in the event of a Leave vote, would not support independence(48:44 against IIRC).
5. Internal SNP tacticians are unlikely to call IndyRef2 until they are as certain as they can be of success (i.e. polls consistently in the high fifties /low 60s in favour of Yes).

It's simply not true to say that Brexit would trigger an immediate second referendum in Scotland or that it would be a Yes vote even if somehow that came about. Far too simplistic.

 

[Biscuitician]

Is there any likelihood of the EU making an 'example' of the UK or 'punishing' it in some fashion should we leave?

 

[steeplejack]

Nobody knows. Hardliners may want to. Use Germany as an example. German trade unions have been calling for a quick trade deal to be done with the UK in the event of Brexit and for negotaitations not be punitive.

senior German, French etc politicians have been stonily faced insisting that "out means out" and letting it be known future terms would be harsh, however.

so the answer is, uh, wait and see.

 

[YouSir]

Is there any likelihood of the EU making an 'example' of the UK or 'punishing' it in some fashion should we leave?

The ghost of Napoleon will start amassing a zombie army by the channel, Angela Merkel will call us all cunts.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

*shrugs*

History to me suggests exactly that. Things seemingly change as various ideologies come and go, yet somehow those at the top are still crapping on those below and from an ever increasing height.

This wasn't what you said. What you said was, 'tory rule for England until the sun swallows up our solar system'. Now fairly obviously I wasn't picking you up on the 'sun swallows the solar system' hyperbole; it was the Tory rule bit I was objecting to. I gave you the example of what has happened to voting in Scotland to provide you with evidence that 'history suggests' voting patterns can change very dramatically.

If you now want to change the goal posts to say that if the UK votes to leave the EU and Scotland votes to leave the UK, then England will remain a capitalist state for some time come...well that would be less contentious.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[Biscuitician]

The ghost of Napoleon will start amassing a zombie army by the channel, Angela Merkel will call us all cunts.

i approve of these outcomes

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

This wasn't what you said. What you said was, 'tory rule for England until the sun swallows up our solar system'. Now fairly obviously I wasn't picking you up on the 'sun swallows the solar system' hyperbole; it was the Tory rule bit I was objecting to. I gave you the example of what has happened to voting in Scotland to provide you with evidence that 'history suggests' voting patterns can change very dramatically.

If you now want to change the goal posts to say that if the UK votes to leave the EU and Scotland votes to leave the UK, then England will remain a capitalist state for some time come...well that would be less contentious.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

Well, I kinda hoped the solar system bit would show I wasn't being entirely serious, but, still.

Oh I dunno, I've just become somewhat cynical and jaded with the whole bloody world. 20 years ago I was prepared to go and fight anything and everything. But now I see people talking of working class change, action, power etc. and I think they're deluded. We lost, the fight was rigged and we're now all fucked. We're left with a choice between shit and slightly less shit. Only way we'll see change is the day we march on Westminster and burn it to the ground. But on the appointed day it'll rain, so everyone will go home to watch Eastenders instead.

 

[jokasmoka]

It's pretty depressing. I would consider myself pretty far left and because of that I can't see myself voting in. I probably won't vote out because of the way it's been played out with leave either and the immigration card. TBH it feels like a vote for fascism either way...at the corporate, unaccountable EU level one way and at national level the other way. All it's done is create more hate. Can someone explain to me how the EU is peaceful, tolerant, inclusive etc because I'm just not seeing it. It's broken and it can't just plod on like it is

 

[Teaboy]

Is there any likelihood of the EU making an 'example' of the UK or 'punishing' it in some fashion should we leave?

I suspect that that there would be a fair amount of rhetoric and sabre rattling in public but behind closed doors the negotiations would be all about making the process as smooth as possible as it would be in everyone's interest.

With anti-EU parties gaining popularity across Europe the Brussels would want to be seen as cutting a very harsh deal for deserters, but I suspect what we would end up with will look remarkably similar to what we already have.

 

[chilango]

I think this referendum has made it pretty starkly clear how absent the Left is from political discourse in England today. Corbyn's election as Labour leader hasn't made a jot of difference to this absence.

That so many of us seem to be resigned to "remain" or abstention precisely because we can't see where the pro-w/c or left forces are that could intervene in a Brexit scenario is a pretty gloomy place.

 

[Treacle Toes]

[Podcast] The Full Marx Podcast: Ep. 3 - The Working-Class View on the EU Referendum

 

[jakethesnake]

[Podcast] The Full Marx Podcast: Ep. 3 - The Working-Class View on the EU Referendum

This is pretty good... well worth a listen imo.

 

[Treacle Toes]

This is pretty good... well worth a listen imo.

I will later...am at work at the mo.

 

[danny la rouge]

It's far from certain that a Leave vote would

1. trigger a second independence referendum in Scotland and that
2. even if it did, that the vote would be in favour of independence.
3. Nicola Sturgeon argued in an opinion piece on Sunday that a successful indyref was more likely in the future, with a Remain vote.
4. There was a poll somewhere recently suggesting that Scots voters, even in the event of a Leave vote, would not support independence(48:44 against IIRC).
5. Internal SNP tacticians are unlikely to call IndyRef2 until they are as certain as they can be of success (i.e. polls consistently in the high fifties /low 60s in favour of Yes).

It's simply not true to say that Brexit would trigger an immediate second referendum in Scotland or that it would be a Yes vote even if somehow that came about. Far too simplistic.

Absolutely. I don't think there's any general appetite (except for from the more excitable activists) for indyref2. I furthermore don't think it's desirable, not do I think it'd be won. Leave may well win in Scotland, but it just isn't a big enough deal to change anyone's mind about independence. It'll be a muted Remain (if the polls are right): people here aren't fired up, and are a bit hacked off about having to have the referendum at all.

However, there are options for Sturgeon if Scotland voted in but rUK led us out. She could, for example, negotiate for Scotland to stay in the EU while remaining part of the UK. This isn't as mad as it sounds: two of the Danish "home nations" (the Faroe Islands and Greenland) are outside the EU, while Denmark (ie Jutland and the adjacent islands) is in the EU. That could be part of a longer game plan than another indyref any time soon.

 

[Biscuitician]

[Podcast] The Full Marx Podcast: Ep. 3 - The Working-Class View on the EU Referendum

Ill hve to listen to that again to grok it all, but his point about ttip surely applies if there's a brexit.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

You saying that without the EU socialism is impossible?

No. Im asking for an evidence based case that socialism can be built on brexit, and sadly Im still waiting. Im equally skeptical of "another Europe is possible" but i must say the inevitable reactionary gains from brexit, at least in the short term, are a put off.

 

[CNT36]

I think that's far too kind to the liberal remain camp. Most liberal remainers that I have come across are pro-EU simply because they've benefitted from things like the free movement of labour. They have no real criticisms to make of the EU.

They say reform a lot but i've not heard a criticism yet.

 

[inva]

No. Im asking for an evidence based case that socialism can be built on brexit, and sadly Im still waiting. Im equally skeptical of "another Europe is possible" but i must say the inevitable reactionary gains from brexit, at least in the short term, are a put off.

what sort of evidence do you have in mind?