WouldBe
Dislicksick
Which is great as long as the customer companies don't get away with green washing.
Just Stop Oil
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WouldBe
Dislicksick
But having a civil discussion is just what you've said they are doing.
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
You can’t read. Again.But having a civil discussion is just what you've said they are doing.
And how is it that companies don’t get away with greenwashing? There are various ways, but one major one is that disruptive protestors make a massive fuss about the fact that they are doing it.Which is great as long as the customer companies don't get away with green washing.
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
No, no it isn't. Try reading what I've said more carefully. Companies want a "civil conversation" because it allows them to not do anything.But having a civil discussion is just what you've said they are doing.
WouldBe
Dislicksick
As no one has picked me up in the 'crap plastic trees' post I made earlier I'll take that as 'the stupid old duffer doesn't know what he's on about', so let's have a quick chemistry lesson.
The reaction the 'scientists' are on about is using lime water to react with CO2 in the atmosphere to produce limestone.
Ca(OH)2 + CO2 ---> CaCO3 + H2O
The atomic weights of the above are 74, 44 for the reactants. Let's call it 2:1 for simplicity. This means that for every tonne of lime water you can absorb 2 tonnes of CO2. Sounds good in paper.....so far.
But the plastic leaves need to be kept wet either with water or preferably with more lime water which will take a small amount of power to pump it up the tree. Pump too much and you could end up with excess lime water dripping on the ground which could affect the environment not to mention the hazard of having containers of lime water hanging around where anyone or anything could get to it. There's also the energy involved to make the metal frame of the fake trees and the energy and oil (oh dear) to make the plastic.
Not looking so good now is it?
However it gets much worse.
To make lime water you need 2 things (there's a clue in its name). So how do you make the lime water.... It's from lime
CaO + H2O ---> Ca(OH)2
This reaction is highly exothermic i.e gives off heat in fact it can make the water boil which should give a clue as to what happens earlier.
To make the lime you need to roast limestone at around 900°C
CaCO3 + lots of heat ---> CaO + CO2
The carbon dioxide is given off to the atmosphere.
The atomic weights are 100 for limestone and 44 for the CO2 which is again roughly 2:1 so for each tonne of limestone you roast you get 2 tonnes of CO2 given off.
In this whole process you have given off 2 tonnes of CO2 to absorb 2 tonnes of CO2 plus all the energy and oil to produce the explosives to break up the limestone in the quarry, plus all the oil used by the machinery to collect and move the limestone, plus the huge amount of energy used to roast the limestone, plus the energy used to produce the metal frame of the trees and the oil used to make the plastic etc etc etc.
tldr: Basically you put more CO2 into the atmosphere than you take out.
Any 'scientist' that thinks this is a good idea should have their degree taken of them.
I've not looked into it but I hope these machines that are being developed to pump CO2 from the atmosphere don't use the same chemistry.
The reaction the 'scientists' are on about is using lime water to react with CO2 in the atmosphere to produce limestone.
Ca(OH)2 + CO2 ---> CaCO3 + H2O
The atomic weights of the above are 74, 44 for the reactants. Let's call it 2:1 for simplicity. This means that for every tonne of lime water you can absorb 2 tonnes of CO2. Sounds good in paper.....so far.
But the plastic leaves need to be kept wet either with water or preferably with more lime water which will take a small amount of power to pump it up the tree. Pump too much and you could end up with excess lime water dripping on the ground which could affect the environment not to mention the hazard of having containers of lime water hanging around where anyone or anything could get to it. There's also the energy involved to make the metal frame of the fake trees and the energy and oil (oh dear) to make the plastic.
Not looking so good now is it?
However it gets much worse.
To make lime water you need 2 things (there's a clue in its name). So how do you make the lime water.... It's from lime
CaO + H2O ---> Ca(OH)2
This reaction is highly exothermic i.e gives off heat in fact it can make the water boil which should give a clue as to what happens earlier.
To make the lime you need to roast limestone at around 900°C
CaCO3 + lots of heat ---> CaO + CO2
The carbon dioxide is given off to the atmosphere.
The atomic weights are 100 for limestone and 44 for the CO2 which is again roughly 2:1 so for each tonne of limestone you roast you get 2 tonnes of CO2 given off.
In this whole process you have given off 2 tonnes of CO2 to absorb 2 tonnes of CO2 plus all the energy and oil to produce the explosives to break up the limestone in the quarry, plus all the oil used by the machinery to collect and move the limestone, plus the huge amount of energy used to roast the limestone, plus the energy used to produce the metal frame of the trees and the oil used to make the plastic etc etc etc.
tldr: Basically you put more CO2 into the atmosphere than you take out.
Any 'scientist' that thinks this is a good idea should have their degree taken of them.
I've not looked into it but I hope these machines that are being developed to pump CO2 from the atmosphere don't use the same chemistry.
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
No one picked you up on it cos no one was talking about it as it’s not what this thread is about. what do you mean by ‘scientists’ anyway?
pug
Well-Known Member
They will change, gas is excellent for making plastic.
WouldBe
Dislicksick
How is that working out?
I only remember 2 protests regarding green washing, 1 was about British airways (?) The other was about an oil company. I've not seen or heard anything about them changing their ways and they certainly haven't cut flights / oil production.
WouldBe
Dislicksick
Sorting the mess out is certainly part of it.
'Scientists' educated people who should know better that come up with stupid ideas that will actually make the problem worse.
Well exactly- just shows the need for protest.
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
They’re either scientists or they’re not scientists. saying ‘scientists’ is like saying ‘experts’ and often precedes the imperative ‘do your own research!’Sorting the mess out is certainly part of it.
'Scientists' educated people who should know better that come up with stupid ideas that will actually make the problem worse.
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
You still don’t get it. You’re either not reading or not understanding anything at all about this.How is that working out?
I only remember 2 protests regarding green washing, 1 was about British airways (?) The other was about an oil company. I've not seen or heard anything about them changing their ways and they certainly haven't cut flights / oil production.
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
Are you a scientist? Are you an economist?
Dystopiary
putting up a hook to hang my hopes upon
I think Just Stop Oil should do a version of "Just Say No" from Grange Hill in the 1980s after Zammo got hooked on smack, except change it to "Just Stop Oil" and maybe get some celebrities for the video where everyone looks really earnest and then everyone share it until it goes viral and then the energy companies will be like "Yeah, loads of people agree with this so we have to stop oil now." Sorted.
WouldBe
Dislicksick
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
I’d prefer you to read and understand what others are telling you. And to qualify your supposed expertise.
Would you prefer "not very good scientists" or "idiot scientists" ?
WouldBe
Dislicksick
Yes. Chemist by training.
No but I have worked in business and witnessed first hand the shit show that results from trying to get things changed.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
We're all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars
WouldBe
Dislicksick
Oh yeah and I've not done any chemistry in 40 years yet can still spot a steaming pile of shit when I see it. If that's the best 'scientists' can come up with these days then we truly are fucked.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
We are truly fuckedOh yeah and I've not done any chemistry in 40 years yet can still spot a steaming pile of shit when I see it. If that's the best 'scientists' can come up with these days then we truly are fucked.
krtek a houby
Anger is Hi-NRG
Every police expenditure is by definition a waste of money cease people shouldn't be committing crimes
How did you persuade the mods to let you back on urban, Awesome Wells?
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
This.
The reduction of environmentalism to individual actions and a ludicrous 'competition' to see who is greenest is counterproductive.
It's a minor point but the chemistry lecturer in me cannot let this slide.
Your reasoning is wrong - Ca(OH)_2 and CO_2 react 1:1 in terms of moles. A mass of 1 kg of Ca(OH)_2 contains 13.5 moles, 13.5 moles of CO_2 has a mass of 594 g.
sealion
Conformity is the last refuge of the unimaginitive
Righto. I'm surprised that you're siding with the OB/ law.
WouldBe
Dislicksick
The numbers may be the wrong way round due to dyscalculia but the chemistry is right and it still results in more CO2 being released due to the processes involved than is absorbed.
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