Just Stop Oil

[8ball]

And coal?

Exactly.

 

[souljacker]

A snooker table is sacred. End of.

Lol

 

[friedaweed]

Just out of curiosity...what was the last successful movement for change in this country that had widespread popular support, positive media coverage, didn't inconvenience anyone...and won?

Red nose day. CIN. Live Aid. The Free Nelson Mandela Concert. Green bin day.

 

[planetgeli]

I'll concede that visually, initially, this was incredibly effective imagery. This is a great picture.

But then he had to get all adrenaline-fuelled and spoil it with this.

Which just make him look like a self-important twat.

And I'm willing to bet it's the self-important twat bit people are talking about following this rather than the issues of Just Stop Oil.

 

[friedaweed]

I'll concede that visually, initially, this was incredibly effective imagery. This is a great picture.

But then he had to get all adrenaline-fuelled and spoil it with this.

Which just make him look like a self-important twat.

And I'm willing to bet it's the self-important twat bit people are talking about following this rather than the issues of Just Stop Oil.

Yes but that ensures that "self important twats" is on everyone's lips and the more that happens the sooner there'll be enough of a movement in this country to deal with the important issue of self important twats.

There's a graph up thread that demonstrates this.

 

[Rob Ray]

Red nose day. CIN. Live Aid. The Free Nelson Mandela Concert. Green bin day.

Other than Free Nelson Mandela, none of those are movements for change, they're movements for charitable donations within the status quo. And there was quite a lot of other stuff around Mandela's imprisonment that was very, very inconvenient.

 

[Rob Ray]

The basic calculation of any challenge to the established system:

Is it inconvenient and/or expensive to implement, and does it clash with ruling class interests/dogmas?

• NO: You can probably get it through via conventional channels, if you have access and influence. Otherwise you're too irrelevant to get through the door in the first place.
• YES: You'll be needing to persuade people that it's more inconvenient/expensive to carry on as is. You can do this one of two ways. 1. Outline a really good presentation explaining the benefits of your changes in such a way as to dovetail with existing ruling class interests and dogmas, and be important enough to get the ear of people who matter. 2. Make it inconvenient and expensive to carry on, in ways which the ruling class can't ignore. Otherwise you're too irrelevant to get through the door in the first place.

It's about leverage vs reasons for resistance. In the absence of other forms of power, direct action provides this leverage by being inconvenient and expensive to deal with. Asking nicely does not.

 

[chilango]

Brexit.



<runs away cackling>

I know (hope?) you're joking but...

Brexit whilst it had plenty of popular support by the time it happened, was very much a "crank minority agenda" for much of its life and remains (see what I did there?) viscerally hated by a significant proportion of the population.

It caused massive inconvenience, brought government to a near standstill for years and has been more effective at causing traffic jams than Insulate Britai.n

It did not get universal positive media coverage, the "liberal elite establishment" (sic) ran a barrage of scare stories.

...and it hasn't really won, has it?

 

[chilango]

Red nose day. CIN. Live Aid. The Free Nelson Mandela Concert. Green bin day.

Green Bin day? Wtf is that?

 

[chilango]

The basic calculation of any challenge to the established system:

Is it inconvenient and/or expensive to implement, and does it clash with ruling class interests/dogmas?

• NO: You can probably get it through via conventional channels, if you have access and influence. Otherwise you're too irrelevant to get through the door in the first place.
• YES: You'll be needing to persuade people that it's more inconvenient/expensive to carry on as is. You can do this one of two ways. 1. Outline a really good presentation explaining the benefits of your changes in such a way as to dovetail with existing ruling class interests and dogmas, and be important enough to get the ear of people who matter. 2. Make it inconvenient and expensive to carry on, in ways which the ruling class can't ignore. Otherwise you're too irrelevant to get through the door in the first place.

It's about leverage vs reasons for resistance. In the absence of other forms of power, direct action provides this leverage by being inconvenient and expensive to deal with. Asking nicely does not.

Basic rule of thumb of early 90s direct action was "will what we do cost them more than what they would have stood to make?".

 

[friedaweed]

Green Bin day? Wtf is that?

Combating climate change through composting garden waste. Much more productive than trashing snooker tables mate. Look how much change I've already achieved today.

 

[chilango]

We only have red and grey bins

 

[chilango]

We only have red and grey bins

...but then there's not much of garden to produce composting waste from either

 

[souljacker]

We only have red and grey bins

You can get a green one but it'll cost you.

 

[8ball]

I know (hope?) you're joking but...

Brexit whilst it had plenty of popular support by the time it happened, was very much a "crank minority agenda" for much of its life and remains (see what I did there?) viscerally hated by a significant proportion of the population.

It caused massive inconvenience, brought government to a near standstill for years and has been more effective at causing traffic jams than Insulate Britai.n

It did not get universal positive media coverage, the "liberal elite establishment" (sic) ran a barrage of scare stories.

...and it hasn't really won, has it?

Yeah, I was joking.

Not much to disagree with in your post, except I would say it has "won".
In the sense that we left the EU.

 

[ddraig]

I know (hope?) you're joking but...

Brexit whilst it had plenty of popular support by the time it happened, was very much a "crank minority agenda" for much of its life and remains (see what I did there?) viscerally hated by a significant proportion of the population.

It caused massive inconvenience, brought government to a near standstill for years and has been more effective at causing traffic jams than Insulate Britai.n

It did not get universal positive media coverage, the "liberal elite establishment" (sic) ran a barrage of scare stories.

...and it hasn't really won, has it?

Wouldn't waste your keystrokes tbh!

 

[CNT36]

of course it made a difference. What, you think the franchise magically extended of its own accord after hundreds of years? You can't just hand wave about "the historic moment" while dismissing what the historic moment was materially comprised of, that's just silly.

The historic moment was materially composed of a country coming out of a long war during which women's role in previously male dominated occupations had increased exponentially.

 

[friedaweed]

You can get a green one but it'll cost you.

£20 a year in Cymru. That's why I only give them the ground elder.

 

[friedaweed]

We only have red and grey bins

I'd love a red bin. Do you want to swap. I've got two green ones since the last big storm and 3 BBQ covers.

 

[chilango]

I'd love a red bin. Do you want to swap. I've got two green ones since the last big storm and 3 BBQ covers.

Only if I can get a garden to go with it!

 

[friedaweed]

Only if I can get a garden to go with it!

I've got some going spare here. Far too much mate. Hurry up before she makes plans for the bit I'm giving away to you. These plans tend to mean graft for me which coincidentally I seem to be spending my day off doing today.

 

[1927]

Exactly.

Exactly what?

 

[8ball]

Exactly what?

Same as with the gas.

 

[redsquirrel]

The historic moment was materially composed of a country coming out of a long war during which women's role in previously male dominated occupations had increased exponentially.

That's true, but it doesn't mean that Rob Ray's point is not also true. The suffragettes certainly did not bring about the extension of the voting franchise to women by their action solely. But their actions, as well as the actions of many of fighters, feed into the wider campaign.

It goes back to what kabbes was saying, are these stunts of JSO going to suddenly cause the government to switch their minds, of course not. But that does not mean that they are completely useless or even counter productive as part of the wider struggle.

 

[CNT36]

That's true, but it doesn't mean that Rob Ray's point is not also true. The suffragettes certainly did not bring about the extension of the voting franchise to women by their action solely. But their actions, as well as the actions of many of fighters, feed into the wider campaign.

It goes back to what kabbes was saying, are these stunts of JSO going to suddenly cause the government to switch their minds, of course not. But that does not mean that they are completely useless or even counter productive as part of the wider struggle.

I agree. They have their place and if they can inspire or feed into a wider struggle then I hope they do.

 

[1927]

Same as with the gas.

We import loads!

 

[8ball]

We import loads!

Indeed.

 

[1927]

Indeed.

So we’d need to import even more, and leave our reserves in ground!

 

[Pickman's model]

Over the last 30-40 years environmentalists have tried pretty much every tactic in the book. (Almost) anything that anyone is advocating as an alternative to JSO's stunts has already been given a go, several times.

Some have worked better than others. None have been effective "enough" in the big picture.

The same - of course - is also true of JSO's stuntism.

Where do we go from here? Fuck knows.

Sometimes things are done at inauspicious times, and in other contexts would have struck a chord. So, much of what has been tried may have failed but might do rather better now.

 

[8ball]

So we’d need to import even more, and leave our reserves in ground!

I don't care what anyone says, you're a smart cookie.