Just Stop Oil

[edcraw]

I'm ambivalent about the road blocking, to be honest. Does it help or hinder the cause? I honestly don't know. But considering just how important climate change is, then any organisation campaigning on that issue needs to be utterly ruthless in assessing the impacts of their actions. I am not getting that impression from JSO, it seems they want to get attention any way how.

As for the suffragette thing, most people don't remember them for breaking windows, do they? Certainly I'd not heard of them doing that until now. I'd not heard of them fucking nail bombing Westminster Abbey either. Jesus Christ. Just goes to show that you can be on the right side of history while still committing terrorist atrocities.

I’m not sure ignorance is the virtue you think it is. Pretty sure most with a passing knowledge of the suffragettes know about the window smashing. Are you even aware of the hunger strikes?

The fact terrorists can be on the right side also really shouldn’t come as a surprise. Not much tends to happen just by asking nicely. JSO actions would only be described as terrorism by the most authoritarian people - these people L just happen to be in government and in charge of our right wing press sadly.

 

[edcraw]

If every way they protest seems to invite criticism maybe its actually the message that people have a problem with. It’d be great if people were just a bot more honest.

 

[Cerv]

Didn’t Morgan storm off his old itv show in a huff? Tantrum throwing toddler indeed.

 

[NoXion]

I’m not sure ignorance is the virtue you think it is. Pretty sure most with a passing knowledge of the suffragettes know about the window smashing. Are you even aware of the hunger strikes?

Where did I claim that ignorance is a virtue? I did no such thing. I am aware of the hunger strikes. I reckon most people think better of such self-sacrificing actions than they do of attempts to murder random civilians, which is why that little bit of history doesn't get talked about as much.

The fact terrorists can be on the right side also really shouldn’t come as a surprise. Not much tends to happen just by asking nicely. JSO actions would only be described as terrorism by the most authoritarian people - these people L just happen to be in government and in charge of our right wing press sadly.

As if there isn't a whole spectrum, nay a landscape, of potential activity outside of "just asking nicely". Would you still be thinking that JSO is right-on if they did start a terror campaign? After all, it would certainly bring attention, wouldn't it? Climate change will negatively impact the lives of billions. What's wrong with a little terror to save so many human lives? No publicity is bad publicity! History will absolve the martyrs.

If every way they protest seems to invite criticism maybe its actually the message that people have a problem with. It’d be great if people were just a bot more honest.

Cherrypicking absolute twats like Piers fucking Morgan is a great way of ignoring nuance, I agree.

 

[LDC]

I don't think the 'they're all middle class' nor the 'they're alienating/causing problems for the working class' are politically useful criticisms tbh. My criticisms are only very slightly about the perception of what they do (although that is heavily mediated through the press we see, and actual public opinion might be very different) but much more about the overall strategy for change that JSO has (doesn't have?) and how these events fit into that. The gluing heads and soup throwing etc. look like increasingly weird symbolic stunts done by a very small number of people and that have no direct impact on the government, nor do they reduce the profit of fossil fuel companies. The argument it's about 'raising/keeping the issues in the press' is bollocks as far as I can see, it's in the press the whole time, solutions are even there for all to see, it's the lack of political will to do anything that's the block, how does this force that along? I have some sympathy with the argument that this type of stuff makes it easy to portray climate action as a bit loony and might even be making solutions less likely not more likely.

I do think there's a weird mis-match between what they say and what they do as well. A friend wrote something years ago titled, "What if we acted like we really meant it?" and this lot fit right into it that 'serious talk/comedy action' box. All this talk of global extinction and mass die-off, and all they can do is some lame paint throwing and chucking soup at art? Not sure that makes any sense in the context of climate change and what might happen. In that vein I think sooner or later we'll see some climate change violent direct action, although maybe not in Europe, but in plenty of parts of the world it might happen sooner rather than later...?

 

[hitmouse]

Here's a reminder of when direct action protesters against oil infrastructure actually did something:

“The Brent Spar Fight” Greenpeace: 1995 | The Pop History Dig

Magazine-styled website about contemporary culture, politics, and business history, crafted to engage readers on topics ranging from civil rights history to the power of the entertainment industry, environmental politics, sports history, music, film, and the media.

pophistorydig.com

I agree, that sounds great. Just like fucking up that fossil fuel research centre, or the oil terminal blockades in April. But you've said on this thread that you don't agree with targeting fossil fuel infrastructure, so is the point here just "here's some other actions which I also don't agree with"?

I’m not sure either of these are happening.

This is not a unique phenomenon but seems a useful stick to beat JSO & XR with. You either think we should do something about the climate crisis or you don’t.

Tbf, I don't think that's a useful binary - "we should do something about the climate crisis" covers everything from platinum's "we should get the oil industry to sort climate change out" to "we should take material direct action against fossil fuel infrastructure now and JSO seem fairly irrelevant to that" and all points in between.

If every way they protest seems to invite criticism maybe its actually the message that people have a problem with. It’d be great if people were just a bot more honest.

Yes, would be interested in platinum's take on that one?

I do think there's a weird mis-match between what they say and what they do as well. A friend wrote something years ago titled, "What if we acted like we really meant it?" and this lot fit right into it that 'serious talk/comedy action' box. All this talk of global extinction and mass die-off, and all they can do is some lame paint throwing and chucking soup at art? Not sure that makes any sense in the context of climate change and what might happen. In that vein I think sooner or later we'll see some climate change violent direct action, although maybe not in Europe, but in plenty of parts of the world it might happen sooner rather than later...?

I reckon we'll see it in Europe too, depends on definitions of violence but non-pacifist resistance seems most likely to happen at sites of extraction and so on, thinking of things like Standing Rock or the Wet'suwet'en pipeline camps in Canada, I'm not a huge expert on Ende Gelande but that seems like a relevant European example? Or the ZAD?

 

[platinumsage]

I agree, that sounds great. Just like fucking up that fossil fuel research centre, or the oil terminal blockades in April. But you've said on this thread that you don't agree with targeting fossil fuel infrastructure, so is the point here just "here's some other actions which I also don't agree with"?

You’re quoting me out of context, as I explained here.

I’ve already detailed the obvious protest target that aligns perfectly with their agenda and which they’ve completely ignored.

Tbf, I don't think that's a useful binary - "we should do something about the climate crisis" covers everything from platinum's "we should get the oil industry to sort climate change out"

I definitely didn’t say or imply that. Do you just like making up bollocks?

 

[cybershot]

Found platinumsage ‘s Insta!

Gonna need some different coloured paint if they head to McLaren.

 

[edcraw]

Presumably this action has the support of Platty Sage etc.



Also just looks good fun!

 

[Gramsci]

I don’t no what actions you mean - blocking roads, spraying buildings or attacking art works are hardly just targeting the working class. Am I missing something?

Im a bit surprised at your posts here.

On the Brixton forum LTN thread you come across as legalistic. Anyone taking action that is against Council policy is going against democracy. That Lambeth Council are the elected authority and any action opposing them whether going down the legal route ( disabled person going to Judicial Review) or other opposition is to be regarded as illegitimate.

Im not clear on the basis that you see direct action as legitimate. Or going down the legal route as legitimate.

 

[edcraw]

Im a bit surprised at your posts here.

On the Brixton forum LTN thread you come across as legalistic. Anyone taking action that is against Council policy is going against democracy. That Lambeth Council are the elected authority and any action opposing them whether going down the legal route ( disabled person going to Judicial Review) or other opposition is to be regarded as illegitimate.

Im not clear on the basis that you see direct action as legitimate. Or going down the legal route as legitimate.

The difference is the cause. Slight difference between vandalising road signs and pouring motor oil on plants because you have to drive a slightly more inconvenient way and protesting about the destruction of the planet. Seems pretty obvious no?

As for the court case - of course people can waste £60k losing cases that wouldn’t even have bought the result they want (the end of LTNs) and I’m free to call it out as stupid & pointless.

 

[Gramsci]

The difference is the cause. Slight difference between vandalising road signs and pouring motor oil on plants because you have to drive a slightly more inconvenient way and protesting about the destruction of the planet. Seems pretty obvious no?

No that is not how it was discussed on the Brixton Forum as you should know.

So what you are saying is that this is somehow different.

On the Brixton Forum your tone was somewhat different.

You were saying this form of direct action was illegitimate.

So what Im getting at is what forms of "direct action" you think are compatible with a democratic society and what aren't?

As on Brixton Forum there were calls for the wrong kind of direct action to be met with the full force of the law.

On the legal route I take it your know saying the disabled person was legitimate in there legal case"

 

[edcraw]

No that is not how it was discussed on the Brixton Forum as you should know.

So what you are saying is that this is somehow different.

On the Brixton Forum your tone was somewhat different.

You were saying this form of direct action was illegitimate.

So what Im getting at is what forms of "direct action" you think are compatible with a democratic society and what aren't?

As on Brixton Forum there were calls for the wrong kind of direct action to be met with the full force of the law.

On the legal route I take it your know saying the disabled person was legitimate in there legal case"

It’s really not comparable. I said at the time it would be similar if they waited around after the criminal action to be arrested but they weren’t - they were doing it at night mostly to disable to cameras so that they could drive through.

Unsurprisingly I don’t support direct action for things I disagree with. That shouldn’t be a surprise and it’s probably the true reason most of the time for people on here not supporting JSOs actions.

 

[edcraw]

On the legal route I take it your know saying the disabled person was legitimate in there legal case"

Well it wasn’t legitimate as they lost but they were free to bring it. But as we know most of their supporters seemed to misunderstand what the case was about and what the result might be and the truly vile OneLambeth lot were happy to lead them on.

 

[Gramsci]

Well it wasn’t legitimate as they lost but they were free to bring it. But as we know most of their supporters seems to misunderstand what the case was about and what the result might be and the truly vile OneLambeth lot were happy to lead them on.

Who is the "we"?

What your saying is the "supporters" had false consciousness. That they were duped and didn't understand. This is so patronising.

They were "led" on. So they were sheep who didnt understand unlike people of higher consciousness like you.

 

[edcraw]

Who is the "we"?

What your saying is the "supporters" had false consciousness. That they were duped and didn't understand. This is so patronising.

They were "led" on. So they were sheep who didnt understand unlike people of higher consciousness like you.

The court case would never have stopped LTNs and that’s why most were donating. OneLambeth seems happy for people to think that.

 

[Gramsci]

The court case would never have stopped LTNs and that’s why most were donating. OneLambeth seems happy for people to think that.

A working class disabled person takes Lambeth Council to court and this is how you see this.

Which caused them a lot of stress. I dont think you understand.

Yet you come on this thread all direct action etc

What can I say

 

[edcraw]

A working class disabled person takes Lambeth Council to court and this is how you see this.

Which caused them a lot of stress. I dont think you understand.

Yet you come on this thread all direct action etc

What can I say

What have I said that’s incorrect?

 

[8ball]

Quite a ballsy move this morning, I thought.

 

[platinumsage]

Far less effective than GIVE PEAS A CHANCE

 

[8ball]

Far less effective than GIVE PEAS A CHANCE

They closed the motorway for that?

 

[platinumsage]

They closed the motorway for that?

I thought JSO's aim was to get their message out, and closing the motorway was merely a method of doing that.

 

[8ball]

I thought JSO's aim was to get their message out, and closing the motorway was merely a method of doing that.

Oh? I thought it was an ongoing vendetta against Little Chef.

 

[Cerv]

Little Chef still exists?

 

[8ball]

Little Chef still exists?

Not for long now, I reckon.

 

[platinumsage]

Especially if the Animal Rebellion folks pay them a visit and start throwing sausages around.

 

[brogdale]

Arresting the press covering the action:

 

[edcraw]

If Just Stop Oil are apparently alienating the public presumably this twat is getting them supporters.

 

[danny la rouge]

Police closed my busy nearest motorway the other day. I agree with Keir Starmer that the police responsible should get longer sentences.

 

[Dystopiary]

If Just Stop Oil are apparently alienating the public presumably this twat is getting them supporters.

An absolutely turd of a person, encouraging thousands of people to publicly rip the piss out of someone at least half his age.
Apparently he's in the concrete business, so no wonder he wants to belittle environmental campaigners.