Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[squirrelp]

As my parents keep telling me for months (and i see it's in papers now too) Michael Foot had big crowds turning up for rallies like Corbyn throughout the 1983 election campaign.

We tried Thatcherism and it didn't work

 

[Raheem]

I can't think of any other politician I can remember having their name spontaneously being chanted around Leeds city centre

I can definitely remember being in Leeds city centre when people were chanting Tony Blair's name. Not in a way he would have liked, mind you.

 

[Vintage Paw]

I was out in outside a local college - in a Labour marginal - today (returning a political favour more than anything else - I am not a Labour member!) leafletting with Labour register to vote leaflets (which were actually pretty good political leaflets).

I was slightly surprised at the response. Must have interacted with close to 100 people. Of that, about 75% were elligble to vote. Vast majority of these had already registered, with lots of the students stating they had done so in the past week. With the exception of one proper Harry Enfield Tory boy character, all were intending to vote Labour, many enthusiastically.

About a week ago, in the predict how your constituency will vote thread, I reckoned this marginal seat would go Tory. I'm now changing my mind - Heard nothing from the Tories, had three leaflets + a door knock from Labour. Labour are doing a lot of canvassing (interestingly, it seems Momentum in the area are actually heavily involved in this) and everyone I've spoken to is saying they've had no Tory doorknockers. The Labour social media presence for the consituency is shit, but then the Tory one is relying on the same really poor advert repeated.

Momentum (nationally, at least - locally it varies) generally are good at trying to mobilise people to campaign in various ways. I got endless amounts of stuff from them asking me to help register people to vote, and when I sent a text message back to one of them I got another in return (so it wasn't just an automated thing). They're organising phone banking (which you can do from your front room, according to the emails I've been getting - how modern, you don't even need to go and interact with someone else in the party), and I expect are providing boots on the ground in key areas for door knocking and leafleting too.

When we had our by-election here in Stoke in Feb, a large proportion of the people who came to help were young, new members. I think a great deal of some people's cynicism that they'd just sign up and never get involved except to tweet out something now and again was misplaced.

 

[free spirit]

I can definitely remember being in Leeds city centre when people were chanting Tony Blair's name. Not in a way he would have liked, mind you.

fair point, but even then I suspect only at political rallies.

 

[Wilf]

It's worth remembering that Foot was on course to win in 83 before Thatcher decided that going to war was her best route to victory.

Also, May is no Thatcher.

Not really. The Falklands certainly ensured the Tory victory - along with the size of the victory, but Labour's vote had been in freefall soon after Foot was elected.
UK Polling Report
The big complication in terms of judging who might have won without the war was the formation of the SDP. The SDP/Lib Alliance were never going to form a government, but all 3 parties were roughly level at the time of the Falklands.

 

[Andrew Hertford]

Was I blaming the print media?

The Mirror and Independent have been doing more balanced coverage.

I brought up Evening Standard as I live in London and it's in my face at every street corner. London is poorly served by media. ES is now edited by Osborne.

Today it was even more obnoxious "Comrade Corbyn flies the Red Flag". There only argument against the manifesto is that redistributing wealth will, in ways that that are not explained, will affect the less well off.

So what are you saying? That the Labour party should ditch policies like the Tobin tax for the City, increased Corporation tax on big business, support for SMEs?

Taking personalities out of it there is nothing extreme in this manifesto.

Or are you saying that it's not the manifesto but that Corbyn is "toxic". A different leader with same manifesto commitments would do better?

I’m saying that a leader with charisma would obviously stand a better chance of winning an election, although of course it's not just about that. Much as I support things like renationalisation and free university education, the public simply aren't going to buy those policies unless they come with a convincing and costing strategy and there isn't one in this manifesto.

I do however think media has a role. It's a fact of life that in a Capitalist neo liberal society that a party which goes against the grain is going to have an uphill struggle to be taken seriously.

Yes it’s a fact of life, so Labour can either accept it or they can sit back and allow default tory demolition of public services for the next decade on principle. Are there any other choices?

 

[Andrew Hertford]

How can you be trusted if you say one thing and with the next breath contradict yourself?

That’s good coming from someone who claimed that ‘undemocratic revolution’ was a way of changing government but then took five weeks to finally admit that you don't mean here in the UK.

It was another poster who kept demanding to know what 'actions' I've taken to help save public services, only it turned out that he/she had done fuck all themselves…. and then you come wading in with some stuff about the Suffragettes and the abolition of slavery!

You make a lot of noise but rarely actually manage to say anything. Do you support Corbyn's leadership? Do you want Labour to win? Will you even be voting? Do you have anything to say about Jeremy Corbyn? Anything at all??

My guess is that you’d prefer the tories stay in power than have a Labour Government.

 

[Pickman's model]

That’s good coming from someone who claimed that ‘undemocratic revolution’ was a way of changing government but then took five weeks to finally admit that you don't mean here in the UK.

It was another poster who kept demanding to know what 'actions' I've taken to help save public services, only it turned out that he/she had done fuck all themselves…. and then you come wading in with some stuff about the Suffragettes and the abolition of slavery!

You make a lot of noise but rarely actually manage to say anything. Do you support Corbyn's leadership? Do you want Labour to win? Will you even be voting? Do you have anything to say about Jeremy Corbyn? Anything at all??

My guess is that you’d prefer the tories stay in power than have a Labour Government.

Pls quote me saying "undemocratic revolution" or apologise. Sick of you making up things and attributing them to me.

 

[Pickman's model]

My guess is that you’d prefer the tories stay in power than have a Labour Government.

Yeh, you do a lot of guessing even tho you're shit at it.

 

[kabbes]

Much as I support things like renationalisation and free university education, the public simply aren't going to buy those policies unless they come with a convincing and costing strategy and there isn't one in this manifesto.

This doesn't appear to be true. The policies are tremendously popular.

 

[not-bono-ever]

I hear he has today also refused to denounce Pol Pot, Ghengis Khan and the Maoist Red Guards as well . The evil fucker.

 

[Wilf]

It was another poster who kept demanding to know what 'actions' I've taken to help save public services, only it turned out that he/she had done fuck all themselves…. and then you come wading in with some stuff about the Suffragettes and the abolition of slavery!

.

I think that was me. In our exchanges we established clearly, explicitly, unambiguously that you have done 'fuck all yourself' to save public services. Or.. have I got that wrong? Here's another chance - tell us...

I can't claim a heroic track record, but when you directly asked what I had done I said:

Me - stuff on and off since 1979 or so, for the first 10 years in the Labour Party, then anarcho politics, more recently anti-cuts, local solidarity movement, stuff on sanctions

So, you've done zip, nada, nothing to defend these institutions you believe in - but you feel you've got the right to pretend I've 'done fuck all'. You're a bullshitter and a hypocrite.

 

[killer b]

The sight of the apparent left criticising may for having too few coppers and squaddies on the payroll is a bit odd, i have to say.

 

[Wilf]

The sight of the apparent left criticising may for having too few coppers and squaddies on the payroll is a bit odd, i have to say.

"More (All) Coppers (Are Bastards) Please!"

 

[RD2003]

It isn't difficult to see why. It's a response to people's fears and insecurities in the context of any discernible alternative being more remote than ever.

 

[xenon]

I'm not voting labour because under Corbyn, they have no chance of winning... Is a thing.

 

[xenon]

More remote than ever. Not like the good old days when you could vote for, erm. Tony Blair?

 

[Raheem]

The sight of the apparent left criticising may for having too few coppers and squaddies on the payroll is a bit odd, i have to say.

I think it's more about trying to neutralise the potential total capture of the electorate with law and order rhetoric. It's always fair enough to point out hypocrisy. You don't have to be in favour of the Iraq war, for example, to wish they at least hadn't fucked it up so badly. Also, the context for police cuts is general austerity. It's not as if May represents some laudable philosophical shift in police policy.

 

[xenon]

I think it's more about trying to neutralise the potential total capture of the electorate with law and order rhetoric. It's always fair enough to point out hypocrisy. You don't have to be in favour of the Iraq war, for example, to wish they at least hadn't fucked it up so badly. Also, the context for police cuts is general austerity. It's not as if May represents some laudable philosophical shift in police policy.

Remember the warm welcome the Police Federation gave her when she was Home Secretary a couple years ago.

 

[Raheem]

Remember the warm welcome the Police Federation gave her when she was Home Secretary a couple years ago.

Exactly. Do I think the police are my friends? No. Am I willing to put that to one side and just enjoy Theresa May sitting on a stage looking a twat? More than willing.

 

[Gramsci]

I think it's more about trying to neutralise the potential total capture of the electorate with law and order rhetoric. It's always fair enough to point out hypocrisy. You don't have to be in favour of the Iraq war, for example, to wish they at least hadn't fucked it up so badly. Also, the context for police cuts is general austerity. It's not as if May represents some laudable philosophical shift in police policy.

Thatcher did give police pay rises. They also did well out of the miners strike with bags of lucrative over time pay. Police did well under Thatcher. Now they are getting it from Tories. I have little sympathy with them. She kept them inside to push through her restructuring of the economy.

 

[Gramsci]

I’m saying that a leader with charisma would obviously stand a better chance of winning an election, although of course it's not just about that. Much as I support things like renationalisation and free university education, the public simply aren't going to buy those policies unless they come with a convincing and costing strategy and there isn't one in this manifesto.



Yes it’s a fact of life, so Labour can either accept it or they can sit back and allow default tory demolition of public services for the next decade on principle. Are there any other choices?

I talked to two ( older) Labour voters I know. They both think Corbyn is not the leader that the party needs. It comes down to them fearing a Tory government emboldened to further destroy the welfare state. They would put up with a new Blairite type it that's what if that what it takes to get rid of Tories. Not that they like New Labour.

The manifesto is costed. Except for nationalising water. It's taxing the rich and increasing corporation tax. I was listening to a political programme on radio 4 ( not known as radical) commentator said that the manifesto was not that radical. Not to be compared to the 83 "suicide note". It appears radical as it's opposing the neo liberal consensus. Reading the Evening Standard the line is that neo liberalism is a given with voters being asked to vote for the best economic managers.

There is a "centre" ground view that the electorate should come to it's senses and vote for socially liberal who are also economically neo liberal parties. That we should go back to a Cameronite Tory party with a loyal opposition Blairite party. This is view of ES. Alternating governments between the two. Somehow to soften the "extremes" in both parties. A "liberal" centre.

It's failed. Brexit showed that. As well as the recent crisis of capitalism that seems to be forgotten now.

Corbyn isn't imo a poor leader. Membership has increased. And these are not just the "usual subjects". My brother's 17 year old daughter joined the Labour Party because of Corbyn. His politics have given hope to the young generation. Whose future is bleak without radical change.

It's not just about Corbyn. It's about a section of the people in this country feeling they have an alternative.

 

[Fingers]

Tonight's YouGov poll. Take a look... 5 point gap now with two weeks to go....

 

[Pickman's model]

Tonight's YouGov poll. Take a look... 5 point gap now with two weeks to go....

Never know, the tories might catch up

 

[Fingers]

Never know, the tories might catch up

Sadly for them, they seem to be ever increasingly weak on national security. Out door knocking tonight, it seemed to be a bit of an issue for them

 

[Smangus]

Tortoise vs Hare ?

 

[cantsin]

Corbo vs Brillo, 7pm tnite - primetime on a Fri, after a week like this - I'm guessing we might be hearing 'HAMAS' , and 'IRA' quite a lot.....

 

[Fingers]

Corbo vs Brillo, 7pm tnite - primetime on a Fri, after a week like this - I'm guessing we might be hearing 'HAMAS' , and 'IRA' quite a lot.....

Labour need to hammer home the dismal Tory track record on National Security, selling arms to terrorist states and cutting the police to the bone.

 

[teqniq]

I really hope they do, it's quite possibly one of the best cards they have wrt to national security.

 

[cantsin]

Labour need to hammer home the dismal Tory track record on National Security, selling arms to terrorist states and cutting the police to the bone.

yep, plus reference hard his his 2003 speech : ""This will set off a spiral of conflict that will fuel the wars, conflict, terrorism and misery of future generations" etc , and relentless opposition to ISIS sponsors Saudia Arabia .