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Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

Old Spark said:
But this is not the vote to do it on. On the deal for exit and the great repeal bill thats the time to do it.This just looks like waiving two fingers.
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Do you honestly think that no political leader could possibly articulate a position that could box May in without simply waving two fingers? I certainly don't but there's no point in me trying to rally supporters to the cause because, as pikkers has reminded me on another thread, I don't any ability with words. Nor, I think does Corbyn, nor has he sufficient strategic or tactical nous.

Ken Clarke came close the other day on the radio, Stella Creasy did quite well on Any Questions on friday but neither of them can lead, devise or fully articulate the opposition to an otherwise untroubled Tory invention of our future. Yet someone has to. I don't really understand how or why they have been allowed to frame the narrative so that you- preumably anti-tory- see it in such polarised terms. TINA
 
J Ed said:
Trump is profoundly disliked by most people in Britain, including most Tories and Tory voters. By taking a strong stance on the visit he has made May look weak and foolish.
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Perhaps, though May has been so profoundly absurd over Trump (that announcement today that Boris and Amber had rung their US counterparts to protest being the highlight, I mean its not as if she was just there speaking to the Donald) that Corbyn could have gone to his allotment for six hours to weed and he would still have made May look weak and foolish over the visit.
 
Old Spark said:
But this is not the vote to do it on. On the deal for exit and the great repeal bill thats the time to do it.This just looks like waiving two fingers.
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I disagree slightly - if he had got an amendment ready to guarantee that there will be an effective vote (ie: to remain in the EU or exit on the terms of the deal) when it comes to the exit deal, it would have headed off an awful lot of the grief he has taken over the Article 50 vote and put May on the back-foot for months; worded correctly that amendment would almost certainly have succeeded.
 
500,000 may sign the petition, and the media is going into overdrive, but how do you know Trump's stance isn't popular in the UK, I think his ban is appalling, but have there been any polls, we have a very robust liberal left which through FB signals its outrage, but what about the rest.
 
treelover said:
500,000 may sign the petition, and the media is going into overdrive, but how do you know Trump's stance isn't popular in the UK, I think his ban is appalling, but have there been any polls, we have a very robust liberal left which through FB signals its outrage, but what about the rest.
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You know it's not popular because the only person saying it's a good idea is Nigel Farage
 
agricola said:
I disagree slightly - if he had got an amendment ready to guarantee that there will be an effective vote (ie: to remain in the EU or exit on the terms of the deal) when it comes to the exit deal, it would have headed off an awful lot of the grief he has taken over the Article 50 vote and put May on the back-foot for months; worded correctly that amendment would almost certainly have succeeded.
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....if that looks like happening May triggers an election and crystallises the poll ratings...
 
newbie said:
Ken Clarke came close the other day on the radio,
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Clarke is a long-term pro-EU free marketeer who, like the LDs, is going to vote against leaving under any circumstances, are you really arguing that is the position Labour, under Corbyn or anyone else, should take?
 
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newbie said:
Do you honestly think that no political leader could possibly articulate a position that could box May in without simply waving two fingers? I certainly don't but there's no point in me trying to rally supporters to the cause because, as pikkers has reminded me on another thread, I don't any ability with words. Nor, I think does Corbyn, nor has he sufficient strategic or tactical nous.

Ken Clarke came close the other day on the radio, Stella Creasy did quite well on Any Questions on friday but neither of them can lead, devise or fully articulate the opposition to an otherwise untroubled Tory invention of our future. Yet someone has to. I don't really understand how or why they have been allowed to frame the narrative so that you- preumably anti-tory- see it in such polarised terms. TINA
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Is corbyn seriously being expected to go along with the very same type of attempts to overthrow his leadership election now being directed against the brexit vote ? Legalistic , parliamentary chicanery to overthrow democratically expressed wishes ? It'd make him a hypocrite and little better than those who tried to unseat him . It's the same carry on from mostly the same assholes .
 
agricola said:
I disagree slightly - if he had got an amendment ready to guarantee that there will be an effective vote (ie: to remain in the EU or exit on the terms of the deal) when it comes to the exit deal, it would have headed off an awful lot of the grief he has taken over the Article 50 vote and put May on the back-foot for months; worded correctly that amendment would almost certainly have succeeded.
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Unfortunately that's a proposal that involves unicorns and fairy dust - the EU rules are that you drop out of the EU on the second anniversary of triggering A50, deal or no deal. Moreover there is no legal mechanism within the EU treaties to rescind A50 once it's been triggered.

All this 'meaningfull vote' stuff is just the witterings of people who haven't read the rules, and ammusingly such witterings do nothing but play into hands of the hardest or hardest Brexiteers. To reject whatever deal May gets ensures that the UK will leave the EU on 1st April 2019 with no deal in place on pretty much anything.

You'd have thought that people who are so keen on the EU might have taken the time to read the EU's rules, but apparently not...
 
kebabking said:
You'd have thought that people who are so keen on the EU might have taken the time to read the EU's rules, but apparently not...
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Have you actually read them, because you are wrong here.
The House of Lords (who I assume have read them) said:
We asked our witnesses whether it was possible to reverse a decision to withdraw. Both agreed that a Member State could legally reverse a decision to withdraw from the EU at any point before the date on which the withdrawal agreement took effect. Once the withdrawal agreement had taken effect, however, withdrawal was final. Sir David told us: “It is absolutely clear that you cannot be forced to go through with it if you do not want to: for example, if there is a change of Government.” Professor Wyatt supported this view with the following legal analysis:

“There is nothing in the wording to say that you cannot. It is in accord with the general aims of the Treaties that people stay in rather than rush out of the exit door. There is also the specific provision in Article 50 to the effect that, if a State withdraws, it has to apply to rejoin de novo. That only applies once you have left. If you could not change your mind after a year of thinking about it, but before you had withdrawn, you would then have to wait another year, withdraw and then apply to join again. That just does not make sense. Analysis of the text suggests that you are entitled to change your mind.”
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House of Lords - The process of withdrawing from the European Union - European Union Committee
 
treelover said:
500,000 may sign the petition, and the media is going into overdrive, but how do you know Trump's stance isn't popular in the UK, I think his ban is appalling, but have there been any polls, we have a very robust liberal left which through FB signals its outrage, but what about the rest.
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Just wonder how many people who think trumps ban is appalling had the same stance when Obama did the same thing? Just a thought!!
 
Labour has two bye elections coming up soon, ones it may lose, Momentum has posted about 15 articles on Trump, etc, little on the elections, how to win, eh?
 
redsquirrel said:
Clarke is a long-term pro-EU free marketeer who, like the LDs, is going to vote against leaving under any circumstances, are you really arguing that is the position Labour, under Corbyn or anyone else, should take?
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no, I'm saying that he is able to articulate a position which seeks to reduce, or constrain, the enormous amount of freedom of movement May has now. Corbyn hasn't. I don't agree with what Clarke says, and i don't expect Corbyn or the Labour Party to do so, but he, and Creasy, have come closer than anyone else I've heard to actually putting forward a position which is more than the simplistic Leave won, suck it up. He has a long term principled record of supporting the EU, and will, as you say, vote against A50 but in doing so he'll argue a case which will seek to push the government in his direction, to hold it to account, to force concessions. Creasy was much more ambivalent about A50, but determined not to give an inch to the tories. I mention them not because I specifically endorse either of their positions but as a contrast to the vacuum where Labour Party opposition ought to be.

Saying to May, as Corbyn has, you can do what you like, without any preconditions, without any redlines, offers nothing in the way of vision of how future arrangements, domestic and international, can be formulated by anyone other than the inner circle of venal tories and their rich mates. Certainly not by the people and for the people, to coin a phrase.

If you know of anyone else who's attempting to push the government to take account of anyone other than themselves then please tell. All I've heard is pointless wailing about the single market, essentially making a case that the ref result was wrong (like the LDs). Or, on the other side, the result is clear, stop whining. That's history. We know the result. But the broad brush result did not give May any mandate to determine every single detail of the negotiations without anyone else having a say. There's no reason for the parliamentary opposition to give the tories anything like so much room for maneuver and we'll pay for that for decades to come. they're inventing our future and virtually nobody seems to want to stand in their way except the loons who want to overturn the result.

I've tried to be clear, I hope it makes sense.
 
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Clarke's position is the position of the the LD - outright opposition to leaving the EU.

No Labour leader can take such a position, they simply can't if they don't want to have UKIP/Tory's eat into their vote even more than is currently happening. Any argument otherwise is just nonsense.
 
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