Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[ViolentPanda]

Why should I try to understand their racism? Do tbry attempt to make an understanding of people that are different to them? Or do they blame the foreign or those in London?

You're pre-supposing racism as a/the cause. Your "logic" is the logic of the circular argument - you won't examine their racism because they're racist, even though you haven't examined their behaviour to see whether it has other motivations.

 

[kebabking]

I don't know why people hate people different to them, but it seems fairly common.

is there an emoji thing that signifies Jesus suffering Christ, give me strength!?

sorry, but if you believe that the only reason that formerly Labour voting areas have moved towards UKIP is that they are utterly, irredeemibly racist, then politics is way out of your depth.

 

[butchersapron]

And when the northern working class felt a threat they turned to UKIP. Sad times.

kebabking

an update on the model - 3) all those labour seats in the north were won by the m/c voters in them. Not the w/c. Who are racist and voted UKIP.

 

[ViolentPanda]

If a party takes votes away from a party so another wins an election. Its pretty significant to me. Like the of SNP

Nothing like, and across constituencies (as opposed to, say, Euro-election regions) the volume of potential UKIP voters only bites in a handful of marginals.

 

[co-op]

Iraq war gnawed into its base in Scotland, but it was its high handed attitude in the Scots referendum that killed it there. Labour remainers wold have done the same over the EU referendum at least Corbyn is making different mistakes

I know it's become the accepted truth that it was the referendum campaign that killed Scottish Labour but they got really taken out in the 2011 Assembly elections, the SNP took 20 out of Labour's 35 constituency seats and it was only because of PR (that corrected the unfairness of the FPTP result) that the scale of Labour's defeat was concealed. The SNP were taking seats in untouchably Labour areas in Glasgow where they took 5/9, all previously Labour. The writing was seriously on the wall; whatever caused the damage it was already mostly done before the referendum.

 

[B.I.G]

Fine. The northern w/c aren't racist despite the fact that most people are afraid of what they are not. And as they aren't racist they will all vote for left wing Corbyn so Labour will get back in power. Good times.

 

[butchersapron]

I know it's become the accepted truth that it was the referendum campaign that killed Scottish Labour but they got really taken out in the 2011 Assembly elections, the SNP took 20 out of Labour's 35 constituency seats and it was only because of PR (that corrected the unfairness of the FPTP result) that the scale of Labour's defeat was concealed. The SNP were taking seats in untouchably Labour areas in Glasgow where they took 5/9, all previously Labour. The writing was seriously on the wall; whatever caused the damage it was already mostly done before the referendum.

Yes, the SSP had been arguing that there was an open door from the late 90s onwards and that nationalism was going to wedge it open. They were right.

 

[19force8]

No, it's not wholly irrelevant as a political marker, but in terms of any effect on legislation, what's extant already encompasses what Corbyn is agreeing to. His decision has no value in terms of affecting immigration.

When Corbyn backs down on the question of immigration it might not have an effect on legislation or on immigration, but I think it will demoralise anti-racists and encourage racists. For me that's more than "not wholly irrelevant."

 

[danny la rouge]

If a party takes votes away from a party so another wins an election. Its pretty significant to me. Like the of SNP

You've homed in on VP's word "significant" then used it in a different context. He quite clearly defined his context: electoral significance within the FPTP system. (Which you should read up on).

 

[ViolentPanda]

Exactly. Its in London. The w/c in London seem a lot less fearful of immigration than those in the North.

Out of the three Northern cities I've visited fairly recently (Liverpool, Manchester and Bradford), I didn't see fear of immigration - perhaps because the communities I visited were multi-cultural w/c communities where immigration had been a fact of life for over a century.

Perhaps if you stopped generalising across an entire region, a phenomenon that inhabits a minority of constituencies, your claims would have a modicum of credibility, or at least wouldn't be so downright risible.

 

[danny la rouge]

I know it's become the accepted truth that it was the referendum campaign that killed Scottish Labour but they got really taken out in the 2011 Assembly elections, the SNP took 20 out of Labour's 35 constituency seats and it was only because of PR (that corrected the unfairness of the FPTP result) that the scale of Labour's defeat was concealed. The SNP were taking seats in untouchably Labour areas in Glasgow where they took 5/9, all previously Labour. The writing was seriously on the wall; whatever caused the damage it was already mostly done before the referendum.

Yup. Labour in Scotland was a dead man walking, a toom tabard if you will, for a long time before the referendum.

 

[B.I.G]

Out of the three Northern cities I've visited fairly recently (Liverpool, Manchester and Bradford), I didn't see fear of immigration - perhaps because the communities I visited were multi-cultural w/c communities where immigration had been a fact of life for over a century.

Perhaps if you stopped generalising across an entire region, a phenomenon that inhabits a minority of constituencies, your claims would have a modicum of credibility, or at least wouldn't be so downright risible.

Liverpool and Manchester voted to remain in the EU. Comrades in arms

 

[gosub]

I know it's become the accepted truth that it was the referendum campaign that killed Scottish Labour but they got really taken out in the 2011 Assembly elections, the SNP took 20 out of Labour's 35 constituency seats and it was only because of PR (that corrected the unfairness of the FPTP result) that the scale of Labour's defeat was concealed. The SNP were taking seats in untouchably Labour areas in Glasgow where they took 5/9, all previously Labour. The writing was seriously on the wall; whatever caused the damage it was already mostly done before the referendum.

the complete downer they had on anyone not towing the parties 'no' line, then bussing people up to get over the shortfall in activists left them with no way to reheal afterwards. But yep years of being in power but taking support base for granted is what did for em

 

[butchersapron]

Liverpool and Manchester voted to remain in the EU. Comrades in arms

No they didn't they voted leave and UKIP and are racists.

 

[butchersapron]

Liverpool and Manchester voted to remain in the EU. Comrades in arms

This phenomenon that you've identified as happening across the north as a whole - does it only happen where it happens and doesn't happen where it doesn't?

 

[ViolentPanda]

If someone votes UKIP they are voting for a racist party. The rise of UKIP amongst the northern working class signifies a rise in racism or a revelation of hidden racism.

Given the "hate speech" laws, and the penalties they carry, can you point to racist UKIP policy, and if you can, why haven't you brought it to the attention of the authorities.

Reality dictates that it isn't enough for you to merely brand something or someone racist, you have to actually prove your claim. You have't done so despite being given countless opportunities to do so.

 

[kebabking]

I know it's become the accepted truth that it was the referendum campaign that killed Scottish Labour but they got really taken out in the 2011 Assembly elections, the SNP took 20 out of Labour's 35 constituency seats and it was only because of PR (that corrected the unfairness of the FPTP result) that the scale of Labour's defeat was concealed. The SNP were taking seats in untouchably Labour areas in Glasgow where they took 5/9, all previously Labour. The writing was seriously on the wall; whatever caused the damage it was already mostly done before the referendum.

this is unprofessionally anecdotal and personal, but anyway...

i think in about 2008 i developed some odd facination with Glasgows industrial past and went for an explore around Springburn in the north of the city - i'd read that in the early part of the 20th century Springburn had two Locomotive construction sites and that around a full one-third of all the locomotives in service in the whole of the Empire at that time had been built in Springburn.

when i was there it had a Tesco and a Costco - and i actually remember asking myself outloud why in the name of God did Springburn and places like it still vote Labour given that voting Labour had given them nothing, absolutely nothing, in the 50+ years since those industries had gone...

 

[ViolentPanda]

If you think its a coincidence then that is fine with me. I don't think its a coincidence at all.

I haven't claimed that it's a coincidence. I've stated that you are unwilling (or perhaps unable) to show that it isn't a coincidence.

Try harder.

 

[co-op]

the complete downer they had on anyone not towing the parties 'no' line, then bussing people up to get over the shortfall in activists left them with no way to reheal afterwards. But yep years of being in power but taking support base for granted is what did for em

I guess no one could have predicted just how daft Scottish Labour were during the Indy Ref and the 2015 GE but the rot was certainly already well established. I mean, Jim Murphy; the man's clearly impervious to reality.

 

[B.I.G]

Given the "hate speech" laws, and the penalties they carry, can you point to racist UKIP policy, and if you can, why haven't you brought it to the attention of the authorities.

Reality dictates that it isn't enough for you to merely brand something or someone racist, you have to actually prove your claim. You have't done so despite being given countless opportunities to do so.

I dont have to prove they are racist. I just believe it.

If you don't believe they are racist that is ok. I dont want to change your mind.

 

[ViolentPanda]

If there is a majority of 50 you need more rebels on one side and less on thr other. Its always relevant I think.

The logic of your reply posits "party line" voting. Have a look in Hansard some time to see how often that happens outside of a three line whip.

 

[B.I.G]

The logic of your reply posits "party line" voting. Have a look in Hansard some time to see how often that happens outside of a three line whip.

Or I could not bother. If you aren't concerned by a massive tory majority caused by labour's collapse then that's fine with me too.

 

[kebabking]

...I dont want to change your mind.

which is a somewhat bizaare line for anyone interested in politics to take...

 

[B.I.G]

which is a somewhat bizaare line for anyone interested in politics to take...

Im not involved in politics. Im a voter. I have beliefs. I state them. And if someone asks me a question I answer it. Sometimes I have questions for them.

But im not interested in changing their mind. They think what they like.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I don't know why people hate people different to them, but it seems fairly common.

Another post that makes use of "seems" or "appears". No data, just your belief. Pish.

 

[B.I.G]

Another post that makes use of "seems" or "appears". No data, just your belief. Pish.

I have beliefs. Sorry I don't spend my time collecting data.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Liverpool and Manchester voted to remain in the EU. Comrades in arms

Thanks for shooting your own contentions about "the north" and northern racism down in flames.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I have beliefs. Sorry I don't spend my time collecting data.

That much is glaringly obvious.

As for your beliefs, what you believe is irrelevant. The convention on here is that if you make a claim, you're honour-bound to substantiate it or withdraw it. Stating that your opinion has utility because you believe it is the worst sort of patheticism.

 

[B.I.G]

That much is glaringly obvious.

As for your beliefs, what you believe is irrelevant. The convention on here is that if you make a claim, you're honour-bound to substantiate it or withdraw it. Stating that your opinion has utility because you believe it is the worst sort of patheticism.

The convention on urban is that you can't state how you feel about something? If you say so.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Or I could not bother. If you aren't concerned by a massive tory majority caused by labour's collapse then that's fine with me too.

You don't appear to understand the UK's electoral system.