Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[Smokeandsteam]

Are any if these new members working class in the areas that have turned to UKIP? Im sceptical. Most are probably based in the same locations as the "metropolitan elites".

I don't know where they are.

The reason I ask the question is that the priority for 2017 seems to be the 'relaunch of Jeremy' and not putting to work - in a serious, strategic and sustained manner - all of these new members. As VP said if that's the case how many of them are going to stick around for the endless infighting?

 

[ViolentPanda]

The grass roots managed to elect Corbyn who then managed to destroy its electability. Sounds like a win for many people.

The grass roots of the Labour Party helped to elect Corbyn, that's all.

As for Corbyn destroying Labour's electability, what electability? They had none prior to his election, under Miliband, and none of his competitors had any either, retread Blairites that they are.

 

[B.I.G]

Labour lost a hell of a lot of voters - which is what we're talking about - due to war. Nearly 3 million lost between 97 and 2005. Why do you think they were lost in this particular period?

I don't feel like responding to you ever again after reading that 2nd bit, but the forced pace of introducing flexibility and related things at work whilst undermining collective methods of improving wages and conditions at work, allied with the selling off of much of the collective methods of welfare health and educational provision and introducing a profit motive into the running of these things - this is what attacking the conditions of existence means. The w/c got you your flaunted social liberalism.

Those 3 million voters should be backing Corbyn then - is anyone more anti-war?

The northern working class are surely becoming more right wing as immigration rises. Why else are they voting UKIP?

 

[B.I.G]

The lost my vote for the complete opposite reason. I doubt I'm the only one.
The fact there was no alternative argument proposed didn't help. Tories and Labour both blamed immigration.

Its true. Is corbyn left wing enough and are there enough people to back him? I doubt it.

 

[B.I.G]

The grass roots of the Labour Party helped to elect Corbyn, that's all.

As for Corbyn destroying Labour's electability, what electability? They had none prior to his election, under Miliband, and none of his competitors had any either, retread Blairites that they are.

Losing an election is not the same as being completely wiped out.

 

[butchersapron]

Those 3 million voters should be backing Corbyn then - is anyone more anti-war?

The northern working class are surely becoming more right wing as immigration rises. Why else are they voting UKIP?

Why on earth would they come back to a party that you think should treat them like scum.

Here we have the problem in a nutshell don't we?

Tell you what, shout scum louder. That might work.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Iraq war gnawed into its base in Scotland, but it was its high handed attitude in the Scots referendum that killed it there. Labour remainers wold have done the same over the EU referendum at least Corbyn is making different mistakes

It was also the fact that Labour had done little in 13 years of Government to address basic issues impacting on the working class in Scotland - jobs, pay, houses, a future for kids etc etc.

You are right about the referendum. People switched from Labour as soon as a viable alternative was on offer (previously Labour thought they could formally abadnon the working class and it would still vote for them as 'they had nowhere else to go'). The same conditions - bar the credible alternative - exist in England and Wales.

 

[B.I.G]

Why on earth would they come back to a party that you think should treat them like scum.

Here we have the problem in a nutshell don't we?

Tell you what, shout scum louder. That might work.

If I think they are scum for being so fearful of people that aren't identical to them, I don't understand what that has to do with them voting for Labour.

Working class solidarity seems to not be be as strong as it used to appear if you are not the same nationality as the majority.

 

[butchersapron]

If I think they are scum for being so fearful of people that aren't identical to them, I don't understand what that has to do with them voting for Labour.

Working class solidarity seems to not be be as strong as it used to appear if you are not the same nationality as the majority.

I wonder who made it a point of principle to attack w/c solidarity as soon as it got in power. Hint: it wasn't Corbyn.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I don't agree. Labour did not lose an election due to the war. And w/c communuities feel immigration is the biggest attack on their existence. Because fundamentally they are right wing in outlook.

That statement doesn't reflect my lived experience. I've lived on council estates most of my 50+ years, and none of the w/c communities inhabiting those estates have been "right wing in outlook". They're often socially-conservative, but that's a different kettle of fish. Most of my current neighbours (I've been in my current community for 20 years) are social democrats who think Corbyn is a breath of fresh air after 20 years of Labour kissing neoliberalism's arse.

 

[B.I.G]

I wonder who made it a point of principle to attack w/c solidarity as soon as it got in power. Hint: it wasn't Corbyn.

The only problem I have with Corbyn is his desire to restrict immigration and the fact he can't seem to state his beliefs and win people over.

I would have voted for him in this election up until the last couple of weeks.

 

[B.I.G]

That statement doesn't reflect my lived experience. I've lived on council estates most of my 50+ years, and none of the w/c communities inhabiting those estates have been "right wing in outlook". They're often socially-conservative, but that's a different kettle of fish. Most of my current neighbours (I've been in my current community for 20 years) are social democrats who think Corbyn is a breath of fresh air after 20 years of Labour kissing neoliberalism's arse.

Out of interest. Where are/were these council estates?

Are they in areas where the UKIP vote was high?

 

[Old Spark]

As todays posts prove -new ,about turn,policy proposals need to be put out at the right time and very very clearly.

At the point when the nhs crisis story leads everywhere JC attempts to divert attention to max pay levels and immigration -and manages to fail to convince on either .Left wing and radical he may be ,professional and credible he aint.


Labour has shifted focus away from the NHS crisis. For what? | Owen Jones

 

[butchersapron]

Next week, Owen Jones asks why Corbyn isn't tackling excessive pay and immigration.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Next week, Owen Jones asks why Corbyn isn't tackling excessive pay and immigration.

Paul Mason will pen an angry comment piece for the Guardian coruscating journalists for finding ways to keep excessive pay off their front pages by running stories about the state of the NHS.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Labour lost a hell of a lot of voters - which is what we're talking about - due to war. Nearly 3 million lost between 97 and 2005. Why do you think they were lost in this particular period?

I don't feel like responding to you ever again after reading that 2nd bit, but the forced pace of introducing flexibility and related things at work whilst undermining collective methods of improving wages and conditions, allied with the selling off of much of the collective methods of welfare health and educational provision and introducing a profit motive into the running of these things - this is what attacking the conditions of existence means. This is what lost them votes.

The w/c got you your flaunted social liberalism btw

The decline in Labour Party membership also maps quite well to the decline in the Labour vote.

 

[butchersapron]

Paul Mason will pen an angry comment piece for the Guardian coruscating journalists for finding ways to keep excessive pay off their front pages by running stories about the state of the NHS.

We'll get Toynbee defending him and the circle will be complete.

 

[B.I.G]

The decline in Labour Party membership also maps quite well to the decline in the Labour vote.

Labour party membership is very high at the moment

 

[butchersapron]

The decline in Labour Party membership also maps quite well to the decline in the Labour vote.

Yes, and Corbyn seems to have won most of those back now plus plenty more. Which is a step forward from where BIG seems to think they should be.

 

[butchersapron]

Labour party membership is very high at the moment

Despite that cunt Corbyn eh?

 

[B.I.G]

Despite that cunt Corbyn eh?

Lets see if it transfers to votes won. I know a lot of people that rejoined Labour. They were based in the areas of the "metropolitan elites". Someone else will need to let me know how membership is going in the labour northern heartlands. Where the left wing w/c communities are hanging out.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Those 3 million voters should be backing Corbyn then - is anyone more anti-war?

The northern working class are surely becoming more right wing as immigration rises. Why else are they voting UKIP?

Most people don't vote on the basis of single issues like a candidate being anti-war, they vote on the basis of the record of their particular candidate, on the manifesto and on the record of that candidate's party in-the-round.

Why are people voting UKIP? Because apart from anything else, they're offering what appears at first glance to be an alternative to "business as usual" by the three main parties; because they're a repository for "protest voting", and because people often foolishly believe that any change is for the better.

 

[butchersapron]

Lets see if it transfers to votes won. I know a lot of people that rejoined Labour. They were based in the areas of the "metropolitan elites". Someone else will need to let me know how membership is going in the labour northern heartlands. Where the left wing w/c communities are hanging out.

I haven't suggested it'll transfer into votes, the new membership is electorally irrelevant. I have said that they won't win back those lost votes if they adopt your preferred tactic of shouting northern working class scum at them.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Losing an election is not the same as being completely wiped out.

Existentially, it's exactly the same, as the result is the same.

 

[B.I.G]

Existentially, it's exactly the same, as the result is the same.

The size of the majority for the winning party is very important.

 

[B.I.G]

Most people don't vote on the basis of single issues like a candidate being anti-war, they vote on the basis of the record of their particular candidate, on the manifesto and on the record of that candidate's party in-the-round.

Why are people voting UKIP? Because apart from anything else, they're offering what appears at first glance to be an alternative to "business as usual" by the three main parties; because they're a repository for "protest voting", and because people often foolishly believe that any change is for the better.

Or because they hate inmigration and want it stopped.

 

[mikey mikey]

Labour has shifted focus away from the NHS crisis. For what? | Owen Jones

Owen does not read his own Graund, the twat. There is a story from the day before yesterday all about Corbyn slamming May over the NHS and one today with McDonnell demanding an NHS audit. Fucking doublethink is stunning.

 

[butchersapron]

Are you just reading this stuff out from Christmas crackers?

 

[kebabking]

If anyone here is active and in the know in the LP/Momentum an update on how the 'building a social movement' work is coming along would be of interest...

...Put bluntly, what are the leadership of the party doing with the hundreds of thousands of keen people who have joined their party??

in a (former) swing/marginal constituancy in the south midlands, not much.

there are enough shouty momentum people around to make pretty much anything hard work and mind-numbingly tedious, but not enough to actually do the local party work of those they've alienated sufficiently that they've left active membership.

in terms of public reaction the (formerly) Labour wards went solidly brexit, and the Labour vote has been falling in those wards since Labour last held the seat (early 2000's). the 'traditional' vote probably produced perhaps 40% of the total constituancy vote in 2015, but EUref and Corbyn has almost certainly taken lumps out of that, and UKIP's biggest votes have been in the old Labour wards for the last decade. for Corbyn the news isn't good - in the middle and skilled working class wards that previously gave the constituancy its swing/marginal nature he's just a dead loss, it would surprise me if 30% of those who have previously ever voted Labour would vote for Labour under Corbyn, and those wards are now much more solidly Tory than they were in 2005/10. in the 'traditional' Labour wards the results are more positive in general 'do you support Labour?' terms, but Corbyn himself is - if more popular than he is in the old swing, but now solidly tory - wards, by no means popular, and painfully unpopular compared to Theresa May (to be precise, the term probably should be 'respected'. May is popular with the ex-Labour, now UKIP vote, but respected as a serious politician within the still Labour vote, whereas as Corbyn simply isn't). in this constituancy, Labour will get few votes because of Corbyn, those it gets will be in spite of Corbyn...

 

[ViolentPanda]

Why on earth would they come back to a party that you think should treat them like scum.

Here we have the problem in a nutshell don't we?

Tell you what, shout scum louder. That might work.

When I left Labour in '94, we were already half a decade into the debate about Labour taking the northern constituencies for granted. 13 years of New Labour govt did nothing to re-balance the loaded scales that meant more attention was paid to m/c "swing voters" and "the south". Anyone who thinks that w/c northerners voting UKIP is primarily informed by racism needs to do a bit of research into the sort of shits the Labour Party have dumped on those constituencies over and over again for arguably the past 50 years.