Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[B.I.G]

When I left Labour in '94, we were already half a decade into the debate about Labour taking the northern constituencies for granted. 13 years of New Labour govt did nothing to re-balance the loaded scales that meant more attention was paid to m/c "swing voters" and "the south". Anyone who thinks that w/c northerners voting UKIP is primarily informed by racism needs to do a bit of research into the sort of shits the Labour Party have dumped on those constituencies over and over again for arguably the past 50 years.

Would people make the same excuse for the middle classes in essex voting UKIP?

 

[ViolentPanda]

If I think they are scum for being so fearful of people that aren't identical to them, I don't understand what that has to do with them voting for Labour.

Working class solidarity seems to not be be as strong as it used to appear if you are not the same nationality as the majority.

And your perception is based on...?

 

[butchersapron]

Would people make the same excuse for the middle classes in essex voting UKIP?

Do you mean excuse or do you mean attempt at analysing and understanding? It's simply only ever the former with you isn't it? No movement, no history just excuses. Apolitical moralism at its damaging worst.

 

[B.I.G]

And your perception is based on...?

On the rise of the vote for UKIP?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Out of interest. Where are/were these council estates?

Lambeth and Wandsworth boroughs, mostly prior to the gentrification of those areas.

Are they in areas where the UKIP vote was high?

No. UKIP get the same treatment round here that the NF got in the '70s and '80s. Only the m/c are interested.

 

[kebabking]

Would people make the same excuse for the middle classes in essex voting UKIP?

i was rather under the impression that its the working classes voting UKIP - or Tory, or simply not bothering - thats Labours problem.

 

[B.I.G]

Do you mean excuse or do you mean attempt at analysing and understanding? It's simply only ever the former with you isn't it? No movement, no history just excuses. Apolitical moralism at its damaging worst.

Why should I try to understand their racism? Do tbry attempt to make an understanding of people that are different to them? Or do they blame the foreign or those in London?

 

[B.I.G]

Lambeth and Wandsworth boroughs, mostly prior to the gentrification of those areas.



No. UKIP get the same treatment round here that the NF got in the '70s and '80s. Only the m/c are interested.

Exactly. Its in London. The w/c in London seem a lot less fearful of immigration than those in the North.

 

[butchersapron]

Why should I try to understand their racism? Do tbry attempt to make an understanding of people that are different to them? Or do they blame the foreign or those in London?

You've not made one step towards justifying the accusation of racism. Not one. Pointless time wasting

 

[B.I.G]

i was rather under the impression that its the working classes voting UKIP - or Tory, or simply not bothering - thats Labours problem.

Exactly. And they do this because they have become more right wing.

 

[ViolentPanda]

On the rise of the vote for UKIP?

So on no analysis whatsoever, just on something that you're unable to prove isn't a coincidence.

I know that the Guardian has tried to establish a direct link between w/c racism and the UKIP vote, but they haven't managed to do so in a year or more of attempts. You're even less successful.

 

[B.I.G]

You've not made one step towards justifying the accusation of racism. Not one. Pointless time wasting

If someone votes UKIP they are voting for a racist party. The rise of UKIP amongst the northern working class signifies a rise in racism or a revelation of hidden racism.

 

[butchersapron]

i was rather under the impression that its the working classes voting UKIP - or Tory, or simply not bothering - thats Labours problem.

No, UKIP = posh people.
W/c = 1)decent non northern non corbyn supporters. The type that won labour the last two elections.
2) horrible northern types who are racist and led to UKUP winning every seat across the north. Which makes them posh really.

 

[DotCommunist]

If someone votes UKIP they are voting for a racist party. The rise of UKIP amongst the northern working class signifies a rise in racism or a revelation of hidden racism.

and a rise in delusion and idiocy according to your holy trinity of why people vote the way they do

 

[ViolentPanda]

Labour party membership is very high at the moment

We weren't discussing "at the moment", we were addressing the decline from 1997 to 2005 (or if you want to be thorough, until 2011).

 

[butchersapron]

If someone votes UKIP they are voting for a racist party. The rise of UKIP amongst the northern working class signifies a rise in racism or a revelation of hidden racism.

Let's say this child like view is true - most w/c seats in the north returned labour MPs. Across the north UKIP did not win a single seat. On what ground then do you damn the northern working class as a whole as inherently racist and right wing?

 

[B.I.G]

So on no analysis whatsoever, just on something that you're unable to prove isn't a coincidence.

I know that the Guardian has tried to establish a direct link between w/c racism and the UKIP vote, but they haven't managed to do so in a year or more of attempts. You're even less successful.

If you think its a coincidence then that is fine with me. I don't think its a coincidence at all.

 

[kebabking]

Why should I try to understand their racism? Do tbry attempt to make an understanding of people that are different to them? Or do they blame the foreign or those in London?

if you want to achieve anything, you would be well advised to start focussing on racism - or support for racist parties - as a symptom rather than as a driver.

if you think you can build any kind of political movement by only including those who think, and perhaps more importantly in this instance, speak in a way you approve of, you are going to discover what it looks like to be envious of the CPGB(M) and its political impact.

 

[B.I.G]

We weren't discussing "at the moment", we were addressing the decline from 1997 to 2005 (or if you want to be thorough, until 2011).

And I was saying the high membership should result in electorial success. We will see.

 

[B.I.G]

if you want to achieve anything, you would be well advised to start focussing on racism - or support for racist parties - as a symptom rather than as a driver.

if you think you can build any kind of political movement by only including those who think, and perhaps more importantly in this instance, speak in a way you approve of, you are going to discover what it looks like to be envious of the CPGB(M) and its political impact.

Or I could join momentum.

 

[Old Spark]

We'll get Toynbee defending him and the circle will be complete.

She has supported the high wage cap today and said he is correct.

But then said it wont work because he and Labour have no economic credibility.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The size of the majority for the winning party is very important.

Inaccurate. The size of a majority only matters within a narrow field. Any majority over about 30 has much the same effect, even regarding contentious legislation. It's also nowhere near as important as it used to be regarding public perception, post-"the coalition".

 

[kebabking]

Or I could join momentum.

same difference...

 

[B.I.G]

Inaccurate. The size of a majority only matters within a narrow field. Any majority over about 30 has much the same effect, even regarding contentious legislation. It's also nowhere near as important as it used to be regarding public perception, post-"the coalition".

If there is a majority of 50 you need more rebels on one side and less on thr other. Its always relevant I think.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Or because they hate inmigration and want it stopped.

Lay out for me your reasoning for positing that northern working class voters might "hate immigration", and please elide the usual "jobs and resources" tropes, as they were pretty soundly put to bed post the Oldham riots.

 

[B.I.G]

Lay out for me your reasoning for positing that northern working class voters might "hate immigration", and please elide the usual "jobs and resources" tropes, as they were pretty soundly put to bed post the Oldham riots.

I don't know why people hate people different to them, but it seems fairly common.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Would people make the same excuse for the middle classes in essex voting UKIP?

I wouldn't, but then I wouldn't "make excuses" for the bourgeoisie anywhere.
Also, in my experience, the bourgeoisie are fundamentally more racist (and classist) than the proletariat, because they feel the "threat" to their status so much more keenly than working class scum like myself do.

 

[ViolentPanda]

On the rise of the vote for UKIP?

You mean the rise in the vote that has little electoral significance with regard to Parliament - that rise?

 

[B.I.G]

I wouldn't, but then I wouldn't "make excuses" for the bourgeoisie anywhere.
Also, in my experience, the bourgeoisie are fundamentally more racist (and classist) than the proletariat, because they feel the "threat" to their status so much more keenly than working class scum like myself do.

And when the northern working class felt a threat they turned to UKIP. Sad times.

 

[B.I.G]

You mean the rise in the vote that has little electoral significance with regard to Parliament - that rise?

If a party takes votes away from a party so another wins an election. Its pretty significant to me. Like the of SNP