Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[gosub]

May probably doesn't feel she has the political latitude to go for anything that allows the headline 'free movement' to be kept -and EFTA allows that, even if it does so with caveats.

Mays bind is that she's faced with a parliament thats all over the place on Brexit, and an electorate that apparently takes a pretty firm view - if she had a parliament that would back her overwhelmingly she'd almost certainly go for some form of 'soft' exit with EFTA and she'd feel that she could face down the electorate, but without that support and knowing that Parliament would take the opportunity to cut her off at the knees if it saw the political opportunity, she has no real option other than to wave the big electorate stick at parliament in order to rod Brexit through.



which rather ignores the electoral reality of what would happen to Mays party at the 2020 GE if she's not left the EU. what might have been better ways to manage the Brexit process are now completely irrelevent, what all that matters is two absolutes - firstly that the two year limit for negotiations is pretty much unbreakable, and secondly that any government going to the polls in the 2020GE that has not left the EU and the free movement principle is going to be utterly destroyed.

i think she'll go for a hard exit, get the election over with and then start the clear up - i'm afraid that the tea leaves do not suggest a mutually constructive approach, but a bitter, nasty break-up with lots of animosity. in that case, it would probably be better to get the divorce over with and then talk about the future when the shouting is over.

I got a different set of tea leaves, but they won't settle til after Supreme court verdict (and preferably the Copeland by-election (but they a now talking about putting that off til May 4th (ffs)))

 

[Brainaddict]

Lovely freedom of movement for the Roma people to leave Hungary, not so much "freedom" to enter though.

By denying Roma people the chance to easily move out of Hungary, will we make it easier for Africans to cross the Med? I don't get the logic at all of 'The EU has a racist border regime, so let's bring back the less (but still somewhat) racist borders within it.' How does that help anyone?

 

[B.I.G]

By denying Roma people the chance to easily move out of Hungary, will we make it easier for Africans to cross the Med? I don't get the logic at all of 'The EU has a racist border regime, so let's bring back the less (but still somewhat) racist borders within it.' How does that help anyone?

In the meantime the Tories are ripping up the country and selling it off and Corbyn is capping the salaries of footballers. Helpful.

 

[butchersapron]

By denying Roma people the chance to easily move out of Hungary, will we make it easier for Africans to cross the Med? I don't get the logic at all of 'The EU has a racist border regime, so let's bring back the less (but still somewhat) racist borders within it.' How does that help anyone?

Could you point to someone making that argument please?

 

[Brainaddict]

Could you point to someone making that argument please?

Some seem to feel that the sum total of suffering at borders will be decreased by the imposition of renewed EU borders. I can't follow the logic of it. Feel free to clarify your argument.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So Jeremy's decision to back further immigration controls is irrelevant because the alternative isn't removal of all immigration controls. Ultra left twattery!

No, it's not wholly irrelevant as a political marker, but in terms of any effect on legislation, what's extant already encompasses what Corbyn is agreeing to. His decision has no value in terms of affecting immigration.

 

[butchersapron]

Some seem to feel that the sum total of suffering at borders will be decreased by the imposition of renewed EU borders. I can't follow the logic of it. Feel free to clarify your argument.

I don't care what some feel. I asked you to point to someone arguing what you claimed that they were arguing. Can you?

 

[gosub]

In the meantime the Tories are ripping up the country and selling it off and Corbyn is capping the salaries of footballers. Helpful.

More nuts than that, high earners have various means of pulling money out of their work. Salary is the least tax efficent at 45% tax. Its a recipe for further tax avoidance

 

[Brainaddict]

I don't care what some feel. I asked you to point to someone arguing what you claimed that they were arguing. Can you?

But what is your argument? It's hard to follow because you constantly like to follow this aggressive and vaguely bullying version of the socratic method. If you spent less time strutting around like the one with all the answers (but oh so reluctant to share, because only an idiot wouldn't already see the answers), your position would be clearer to others. If you could deign to just give a straightforward argument you might even persuade a few people.

 

[ViolentPanda]

What about the hundreds of thousands who joined post Corbyn, including many on here?

Indeed, what about them?
They haven't, as I predicted, had much impact, have they? They're members of an organisation where the grass roots has no power, and reclaiming power/repatriating power to the membership is a difficult long-term endeavour. To me, that means that membership is pointless, except as a method of soaking up activists into futile Labour infighting.

 

[B.I.G]

More nuts than that, high earners have various means of pulling money out of their work. Salary is the least tax efficent at 45% tax. Its a recipe for further tax avoidance

To reduce tax avoidance it wouod be necessary to simplify the tax code and fund HRMC. Sounds like actual hard work

 

[butchersapron]

But what is your argument? It's hard to follow because you constantly like to follow this aggressive and vaguely bullying version of the socratic method. If you spent less time strutting around like the one with all the answers (but oh so reluctant to share, because only an idiot wouldn't already see the answers), your position would be clearer to others. If you could deign to just give a straightforward argument you might even persuade a few people.

So no, you can't. You entered attacking an argument that no one has made. With what intention?

 

[B.I.G]

Indeed, what about them?
They haven't, as I predicted, had much impact, have they? They're members of an organisation where the grass roots has no power, and reclaiming power/repatriating power to the membership is a difficult long-term endeavour. To me, that means that membership is pointless, except as a method of soaking up activists into futile Labour infighting.

The grass roots managed to elect Corbyn who then managed to destroy its electability. Sounds like a win for many people.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Fuck off.

How eloquent, you tinpot pissant gobshite.

 

[butchersapron]

The grass roots managed to elect Corbyn who then managed to destroy its electability. Sounds like a win for many people.

Hang on, Corbyn was elected because of labour un-electability surely? Losing two GE's on the trot and all that. At the very least, his election followed those failures.

Labour is the problem - not (just) Corbyn.

 

[Brainaddict]

So no, you can't. You entered attacking an argument that no one has made. With what intention?

With the intention of pointing out the absurdity of your position if you can't (or refuse to) explain the mechanisms by which e.g. African people will be better off with more borders within the EU.

 

[B.I.G]

Hang on, Corbyn was elected because of labour un-electibility surely? Losing two GE's on the trot and all that. Or at the very least, his election followed those failures. Labour is the problem - not just Corbyn.

I don't think it is. Losing a general general does not mean its impossible to win the next one.

Although judging by the people put forward to counter Corbyn, which I was shocked by, let alone the people who were too scared to stand, maybe you are right and the problem is Labour.

 

[butchersapron]

With the intention of pointing out the absurdity of your position if you can't (or refuse to) explain the mechanisms by which e.g. African people will be better off with more borders within the EU.

Can you point to someone making that argument please?

 

[butchersapron]

I don't think it is. Losing a general general does not mean its impossible to win the next one.

Although judging by the people put forward to counter Corbyn, which I was shocked by, let alone the people who were too scared to stand, maybe you are right and the problem is Labour.

They lost not one but two on the trot. Corbyn was not leader for either of them - nor was his type of politics what labour went to the polls on. So the idea that he has made labour unelectable is wrong. he may have made them less electable (i think it's too soon to say that) but he was not the author of that unelectability. In fact, of all the people with least responsibility for that he must be pretty near the top.

 

[B.I.G]

They lost not one but two on the trot. Corbyn was not leader for either of them - nor was his type of politics what labour went to the polls on. So the idea that he has made labour unelectable is wrong. he may have made them less electable (i think it's too soon to say that) but he was not the author of that unelectability. In fact, of all the people with least responsibility for that he must be pretty near the top.

Labour will get destroyed in the next election. The tories will win the election by a landslide and they will enact whatever policies they wish.

This all at the time when the Tories are destroying the country.

Corbyn has the worst of all politics. I dont know much about you but you seem to be in favour of migration from around the world. Something he seems to be against along with the reinstatement of Britain of the 1950s.

 

[butchersapron]

Labour will get destroyed in the next election. The tories will win the election by a landslide and they will enact whatever policies they wish.

This all at the time when the Tories are destroying the country.

Corbyn has the worst of all politics. I dont know much about you but you seem to be in favour of migration from around the world. Something he seems to be against along with the reinstatement of Britain of the 1950s.

I expect they will too. But my point is that to argue this is simply down to corbyn is to ignore the behaviour of the actual party before he became leader and the actual voting behaviour of voters before his leadership. It, in fact, gives the party a get out of jail card for all those shitty things they did and all for losing all those millions of voters.

 

[gosub]

They lost not one but two on the trot. Corbyn was not leader for either of them - nor was his type of politics what labour went to the polls on. So the idea that he has made labour unelectable is wrong. he may have made them less electable (i think it's too soon to say that) but he was not the author of that unelectability. In fact, of all the people with least responsibility for that he must be pretty near the top.

Yes and no. But last summers failed coup didn't do anybody any favours except the tories. Half baked in every sense.
Should have waited til this year and put forward someone credible. Harder to do that now.

 

[B.I.G]

I expect they will too. But my point is that to argue this is simply down to corbyn is to ignore the behaviour of the actual party before he became leader and the actual voting behaviour of voters before his leadership. It, in fact, gives the party a get out of jail card for all those shitty things they did and all for losing all those millions of voters.

Fair enough. Although the party lost most of its millions of votes by not being right wing enough. The sad thing about the UK is how right wing it is and it saddens me.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Indeed, what about them?
They haven't, as I predicted, had much impact, have they? They're members of an organisation where the grass roots has no power, and reclaiming power/repatriating power to the membership is a difficult long-term endeavour. To me, that means that membership is pointless, except as a method of soaking up activists into futile Labour infighting.

If anyone here is active and in the know in the LP/Momentum an update on how the 'building a social movement' work is coming along would be of interest.

Around the time of the failed coup the resource, political capital and energy required to build an - albeit top down - Podemos like social movemert was a key pledge of Corbyn/McDonnell/Owen Jones/Paul Mason etc. It was how Labour would overcome the hostile mainstream media and reconnect in working class areas previously lost to them.

Put bluntly, what are the leadership of the party doing with the hundreds of thousands of keen people who have joined their party??

 

[butchersapron]

Fair enough. Although the party lost most of its millions of votes by not being right wing enough. The sad thing about the UK is how right wing it is and it saddens me.

It lost most of them through a) war and b) alienating w/c communities by attacking the basis of their existence

 

[B.I.G]

If anyone here is active and in the know in the LP/Momentum an update on how the 'building a social movement' work is coming along would be of interest.

Around the time of the failed coup the resource, political capital and energy required to build an - albeit top down - Podemos like social movemert was a key pledge of Corbyn/McDonnell/Owen Jones/Paul Mason etc. It was how Labour would overcome the hostile mainstream media and reconnect in working class areas previously lost to them.

Put bluntly, what are the leadership of the party doing with the hundreds of thousands of keen people who have joined their party??

Are any if these new members working class in the areas that have turned to UKIP? Im sceptical. Most are probably based in the same locations as the "metropolitan elites".

 

[B.I.G]

It lost most of them through a) war and b) alienating w/c communities by attacking the basis of their existence

I don't agree. Labour did not lose an election due to the war. And w/c communuities feel immigration is the biggest attack on their existence. Because fundamentally they are right wing in outlook.

 

[Lord Camomile]

Fair enough. Although the party lost most of its millions of votes by not being right wing enough.

The lost my vote for the complete opposite reason. I doubt I'm the only one.

I don't agree. Labour did not lose an election due to the war. And w/c communuities feel immigration is the biggest attack on their existence. Because fundamentally they are right wing in outlook.

The fact there was no alternative argument proposed didn't help. Tories and Labour both blamed immigration.

 

[gosub]

I don't agree. Labour did not lose an election due to the war. And w/c communuities feel immigration is the biggest attack on their existence. Because fundamentally they are right wing in outlook.

Iraq war gnawed into its base in Scotland, but it was its high handed attitude in the Scots referendum that killed it there. Labour remainers wold have done the same over the EU referendum at least Corbyn is making different mistakes

 

[butchersapron]

I don't agree. Labour did not lose an election due to the war. And w/c communuities feel immigration is the biggest attack on their existence. Because fundamentally they are right wing in outlook.

Labour lost a hell of a lot of voters - which is what we're talking about - due to war. Nearly 3 million lost between 97 and 2005. Why do you think they were lost in this particular period?

I don't feel like responding to you ever again after reading that 2nd bit, but the forced pace of introducing flexibility and related things at work whilst undermining collective methods of improving wages and conditions, allied with the selling off of much of the collective methods of welfare health and educational provision and introducing a profit motive into the running of these things - this is what attacking the conditions of existence means. This is what lost them votes.

The w/c got you your flaunted social liberalism btw