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Reaching out
Had a feeling JC was on breakfast television this morning. Jeremy Corbyn CRUMBLES to Piers Morgan in epic roasting: ‘Do you actually want to be PM?'
Jeremy Corbyn's time is up
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redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Lovely freedom of movement for the Roma people to leave Hungary, not so much "freedom" to enter though.
billy_bob
Air of bewilderment model's own
19force8 's original comment that sparked this was "[Corbyn] could put free movement at the heart of Labour's position on Brexit, but no, he wants more limits on immigration."
This could mean "I believe the EU means free movement and this should have been Corbyn's reason for positioning Labour as supporting Remain".
It could mean "I believe the EU is opposed to genuine free movement and prevents it, and for this reason Corbyn should have positioned Labour as supporting Leave".
It could mean several things in between.
So it seems fair enough that the intention of the post was questioned. But 19force8 seems to have clarified that it wasn't his/her intention to suggest the EU was a bastion of free movement, so to continue to insist that it was is tilting at windmills.
mikey mikey
Active Member
Ah, the Express^. For those even more Swivel-eyed Tory than your usual Tory.
And Piers fkn Morgan, ffs.
Here's a less "moderate" take on things.
It's Jeremy Corbyn versus Piers Morgan on immigration and Brexit
And Piers fkn Morgan, ffs.
Here's a less "moderate" take on things.
It's Jeremy Corbyn versus Piers Morgan on immigration and Brexit
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I'm questioning not just that specific usage up above but the general idea of freedom of movement as a term - as a term that does political work. In reference to the EU it hides all those things i mentioned in an unquestioned defence of 'freedom'. Wider than the the EU it means the driving of millions of people from their homes by dull economic compulsion or rather more exciting bombs. Freedom of movement is capitals terms for its control of and use of labour-power. It's not jetting off to cyprus for the weekend. Using these terms as part of a defence of immigration - or anything - seems to me to be pointless, self defeating and not an accurate way to describe what is happening and why.
cantsin
Well-Known Member
not sure what that means , you think the current (comparatitively low due to EU free movement) level of immigration controls are causing "appalling levels of racism ..in the the UK " ?
Millions of people in the EU have moved countries for various reasons. For love, for change, for money, for a career.
This is a positive that is being removed.
Just as a non-tory government is a positive that is being removed by the terrible performance of the labour party. Sad times.
billy_bob
Air of bewilderment model's own
That's a positive if it exists in a vaccuum. Not so much if that freedom is bought at the expense of less fortunate people also having the right to move country for various reasons. As it has been...
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
That's exactly how it works - it looks like a nice neutral term that isn't doing any work - but it is.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
But using the term as he did perpetuates the fiction that there is such a thing as freedom of movement that may be possible within the EU or under capitalism.
It's a nonsense like the other 'freedoms' people have, 'free' to have the type of jobs they want etc. Why would any socialist buy into this rubbish?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
The idea that there will or could be any democratic input into the form brexit will take - hence putting a position at the centre of an approach - is equally naive i think.
billy_bob
Air of bewilderment model's own
Yes, I'm agreeing with you. But there's a difference between asking someone to reconsider the terminology they're using and how it may be loaded, and just haranging them about how bad they are for using it
I dont believe that immigration from outside the EU has been restricted as a consequence of immigration from the EU. I dont believe that the people from outside the EU were that entered the country were less fortunate than those that entered from within. And I don't believe leaving the EU will mean less fortunate people are permitted to enter.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
He said he wanted to play the game though.Yes, I'm agreeing with you. But there's a difference between asking someone to reconsider the terminology they're using and how it may be loaded, and just haranging them about how bad they are for using it
Anyway, that's done now hopefully.
19force8
For the avoidance of faith
My comment was an off the cuff response in a frustrating exchange. So maybe not very well thought out.
I think immigration controls are one factor affecting levels of racism. It's probably a feedback loop, they give the message that the problem is the immigrant. By tightening them you reinforce that message resulting in calls for further restrictions.
lots of people have joined in the last 18 months.
Tell me how you can have fully open borders and a full welfare state?, O/B is an ideology like any other.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
If you've still got a Labour Party membership card, then you'll never eat it. You'll just carry on accepting any old shite, as long as it can be justified by the pols.
gosub
~#
At electorate level, yes. Parliament should be at the heart of things though
What about the hundreds of thousands who joined post Corbyn, including many on here?
19force8
For the avoidance of faith
Whether or not there can be any "democratic input" in the form of brexit would depend on whether or not we live in a democracy. That's not an argument against pushing for progressive policies, or pushing back against regressive ones.
The position the Labour Party takes on immigration controls actually makes a difference in the day to day reality of life in this country. That is why I was so disappointed about this latest appeasement.
19force8
For the avoidance of faith
Fuck off.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
True, but some people on the left have the endearing idea that "freedom of movement" as defined by the EU is a meaningful step toward an actual "freedom of movement", when actually it's just another set of exclusionary rules that are - in particular - aimed at people from former colonies of European powers, and in general at anyone who doesn't conform to the "European and white" ideal.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
45 years ago, we had the last of a series of Immigration Acts removing the rights of citizens of the Commonwealth to emigrate to the UK except through a laborious application process. 112 years ago, we had the final iteration of the Aliens Act. Anyone who thinks that the UK has freedom of movement, or has ever had freedom of movement since industrialisation, is kidding themselves.
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
Justify this, please.
Parliament - when in the heart of things - opted to transfer the decision to a referendum of the electorate.
gosub
~#
The real headache of Brexit is the two year guillotine and what is achievable in that time frame. Going down the immigration controls shores up Labour against UKIP, but gives the government a free ride on taking the most gnarly route out of the EU (at a time when effectively the civil service expert has resigned, thinking it can't be done).
An effective opposition would be holding the government's feet to the fire over what is practically achievable, not fighting rear guard actions that will cause further internal divisions.
The EFTA route, while ditute, puts you in a postition where you can address things properly. May's bespoke deal in two years a disaster,and Corbyn -realistically a hard Brexit.
An effective opposition would be holding the government's feet to the fire over what is practically achievable, not fighting rear guard actions that will cause further internal divisions.
The EFTA route, while ditute, puts you in a postition where you can address things properly. May's bespoke deal in two years a disaster,and Corbyn -realistically a hard Brexit.
gosub
~#
A referendum gave direction, in a binary choice- absolutely useless at helping flesh out detail of a plan of attack -that you can and should do through parliament -there is your democratic input on shaping the country . Beyond that you then have to agree a deal with the EU, won't be 100% what people want but you can't really put the input then coz the choice is either :this deal that you've negotiated or the biggest shit sandwich going...Clock is ticking, must be done and dusted in two years.
What seems sensible to me, is to put things in a place where they can be further addressed, with reference to the electorate AFTER the two years. Though none of the parties involved seem to be going down that route of expectation management.
billy_bob
Air of bewilderment model's own
I'm aware of that. My meaning was that it's become a self-satirising and entirely self-defeating institution and eating your card in protest seems somewhat superfluous.
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
May probably doesn't feel she has the political latitude to go for anything that allows the headline 'free movement' to be kept -and EFTA allows that, even if it does so with caveats.
Mays bind is that she's faced with a parliament thats all over the place on Brexit, and an electorate that apparently takes a pretty firm view - if she had a parliament that would back her overwhelmingly she'd almost certainly go for some form of 'soft' exit with EFTA and she'd feel that she could face down the electorate, but without that support and knowing that Parliament would take the opportunity to cut her off at the knees if it saw the political opportunity, she has no real option other than to wave the big electorate stick at parliament in order to rod Brexit through.
which rather ignores the electoral reality of what would happen to Mays party at the 2020 GE if she's not left the EU. what might have been better ways to manage the Brexit process are now completely irrelevent, what all that matters is two absolutes - firstly that the two year limit for negotiations is pretty much unbreakable, and secondly that any government going to the polls in the 2020GE that has not left the EU and the free movement principle is going to be utterly destroyed.
i think she'll go for a hard exit, get the election over with and then start the clear up - i'm afraid that the tea leaves do not suggest a mutually constructive approach, but a bitter, nasty break-up with lots of animosity. in that case, it would probably be better to get the divorce over with and then talk about the future when the shouting is over.
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