Is this woman a transphobe?

[iveivan]

I don’t understand what any of this has to do with feminism. Can someone explain?

 

[Border Reiver]

Nobody would deny their experiences, nor is anyone suggesting that, but the interpretation of them and the impact of on them could be discussed.

A person is the only witness to their own cognitions and emotions.

 

[bimble]

It is a key definition of therapy that the client has the right to their own experiences.

eh? So if I say I’m fat then no matter whether or not I’ve come to you for help with my anorexia you shouldnt challenge my experience of myself as fat. Ok.

 

[belboid]

ut when trans activists condemn "conversion therapy" for young (potentially) trans people what they mean is offering anything except "affirmation" if a person has self-diagnosed themselves as trans, in other words possibilities such as being gay, being gnc, suffering from body dysphoria due to other reasons are expressly ignored. If a therapist were to try and address those issues or even find out if they exist, that is "conversion therapy" and transphobic. This seems utterly wrong to me.

It is wrong, but, handily, its also a load of made up tosh. I'm sure you can find one person on twitter arguing something like that, but you can find one person on twitter arguing anything. Overwhelmingly, trans groups and activists support any kind of support that is non-judgemental and says that there is nothing wrong with being trans.

Everyone needs help and support in coming to terms with 'who they are' in some way, sadly, many of the 'gender critical' feminists oppose any support in schools for trans people, they have argued that it isn't safe and/or hasn't been tested in any way, so shouldn't happen (thus ensuring that new ideas will never be tested). Its just another insurmountable objection put forward disingenuously.

 

[Border Reiver]

eh? So if I say I’m fat then no matter whether or not I’ve come to you for help with my anorexia you shouldnt challenge my experience of myself as fat. Ok.

Cognition and emotion are separate from reality.

 

[bimble]

Cognition and emotion are separate from reality.

Deep.

 

[Knotted]

Nobody would deny their experiences, nor is anyone suggesting that, but the interpretation of them and the impact of them could be discussed.

As we're talking conversion therapy, I think the relevant question here is do you try to condition the child to act their assigned gender. In the words of Kenneth Zucker, "take away the Barbie".

Feminists and trans gender activists should be on the same side on this one.

 

[LDC]

A person is the only witness to their own cognitions and emotions.

Your posting style really makes you seem like an arrogant dick btw, especially since you've turned up here today and are just posting on this thread.

 

[Border Reiver]

Deep.

Not really. Basic.

 

[belboid]

Sex may have multiple signifiers, but it has one function.

blimey, we are going back to the dark ages. Gay sex is functionless then? Sex with condoms on is 'functionless'? What a thoroughly reactionary argument.

 

[Shechemite]

Autism spectrum disorder, ADHD, that sort of thing. Just short hand in this instance.

parents tend to be the one’s seeking such a dx for their kids, and health care/education professionals tend to be more skeptical IME.

This would be the reverse of what happens with a trans dx

 

[bimble]

These trans ‘debates’ seem to get stupider and stupider with every iteration, I think it’s because the only people left are the ones standing on soapboxes in their pants.

 

[Border Reiver]

Your posting style really makes you seem like an arrogant dick btw, especially since you've turned up here today and are just posting on this thread.

Being new here does not mean being ill educated.

I tend to ignore posters who resort to abuse.

 

[LDC]

Sticking this Big Lebowski style philosopher on ignore.

 

[Shechemite]

It is a key definition of therapy that the client has the right to their own experiences.

ive never come across any NHS professional that has (rightly or wrongly) simply affirmed a patients experience and not (at the very least) give the patient their own perspective

 

[Knotted]

parents tend to be the one’s seeking such a dx for their kids, and health care/education professionals tend to be more skeptical IME.

This would be the reverse of what happens with a trans dx

Usually, yes. However, there's a very definite and very obnoxious denialist movement.

 

[Border Reiver]

ive never come across any NHS professional that has (rightly or wrongly) simply affirmed a patients experience and not (at the very least) give the patient their own perspective

Acceptance is not affirmation.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Cognition and emotion are separate from reality.

No, I don't accept that. They are a part of reality. You're right of course that conscious experience, or mind, can only be accessed directly by the individual, but even that doesn't place it as separate from reality. wrt gender dysphoria, there is a particular kind of disconnect and conflict between the body and the mind. How therapists should best approach that is a massive question of course, but I would say that it is one that doesn't lend itself well to dogmatically held preconceptions.

 

[Border Reiver]

Sticking this Big Lebowski style philosopher on ignore.

I can manage without people whose debating style is based on ad hominem and abuse.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

blimey, we are going back to the dark ages. Gay sex is functionless then? Sex with condoms on is 'functionless'? What a thoroughly reactionary argument.

I was talking about the existence of the category biological sex there.

You misunderstood. Maybe I was unclear.

Of course the act of sexual intercourse can have many functions.

 

[Border Reiver]

No, I don't accept that. They are a part of reality. You're right of course that conscious experience, or mind, can only be accessed directly by the individual, but even that doesn't place it as separate from reality. wrt gender dysphoria, there is a particular kind of disconnect and conflict between the body and the mind. How therapists should best approach that is a massive question of course, but I would say that it is one that doesn't lend itself well to dogmatically held preconceptions.

A person's experience is incorrigible.

 

[belboid]

I was talking about the existence of the category biological sex there.

You misunderstood. Maybe I was unclear.

Of course the act of sexual intercourse can have many functions.

That doesn't really help you, in fact its even worse. Unless you simply want to reduce all of humanity to being a machine for reproduction

 

[Sue]

Your posting style really makes you seem like an arrogant dick btw, especially since you've turned up here today and are just posting on this thread.

Aye well, I did wonder...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That doesn't really help you, in fact its even worse. Unless you simply want to reduce all of humanity to being a machine for reproduction

Nah, this post just shows that you weren't following that line of argument. Border Reiver was making some very specific claims wrt the existence of sex (the biology, not the act). It's a problem of language, I admit - the word 'sex' is used in various different ways.

You can just say 'oh soz got it wrong'.

 

[Athos]

Function does not define anything completely. It is merely one aspect of meaning.

He didn't claim that it did. And he explicitly recognised sex has many signifiers.

 

[belboid]

Nah, this post just shows that you weren't following that line of argument. Border Reiver was making some very specific claims wrt the existence of sex (the biology, not the act). It's a problem of language, I admit - the word 'sex' is used in various different ways.

You can just say 'oh soz got it wrong'.

I could, but I didnt I think its another crude, reductionist, statement. If we want to be biologically precise, the 'sex chromosomes' all have more than one 'function'

 

[iveivan]

I don’t understand what any of this has to do with feminism. Can someone explain?

Guess not

 

[Border Reiver]

He didn't claim that it did. And he explicitly recognised sex has many signifiers.

But he claimed that function was the main signifier, without any backing other than his opinion. I merely asked him for evidence to support his opinion that function was the main factor.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I could, but I didnt I think its another crude, reductionist, statement. If we want to be biologically precise, the 'sex chromosomes' all have more than one 'function'

Nah, see I wasn't talking about chromosomes, haven't mentioned them once. Criticise my posts on this if you like, but do me the courtesy of reading them first.

 

[Athos]

But he claimed that function was the main signifier, without any backing other than his opinion. I merely asked him for evidence to support his opinion that function was the main factor.

Where did he claim that?