Is this woman a transphobe?

[elbows]

Tons and tons of really shitty and hostile social pressure & contempt of course but absolutely no actual "conversion therapy".

I have no intention of ending my self-imposed ban from discussing trans issues on u75. But I will respond to this horseshit you are spouting about conversion therapy.

The following chart is from the Government equalities office 2018 national LGBT survey report.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/721704/LGBT-survey-research-report.pdf

 

[SpackleFrog]

Rather than Stonewall - who I think are so dishonest and deceitful about this issue that they are almost impossible to pin down on anything - I suggest you read this statement by Keira Bell for her crowdfunder to sue the Gender Identity Service at the Tavistock. Her twitter is also very honest and thoughtful and she discusses the issues there quite often.

Protect Gender Dysphoric Children from the Affirmation Model

I'm an ex patient of Gender Identity Clinics where I was prescribed dangerous, experimental drugs and received a double mastectomy procedure. I am fighting to stop this from happening to minors.

www.crowdjustice.com

Cos there isn't a Stonewall link you lieing little prick. Youre just inventing reasons to keep talking about your obsessions.

 

[smokedout]

Of course there probably still are - crackpot religious converters trying it in the US, but here in the UK there is an absolute non-problem with conversion therapy and gay people now. Tons and tons of really shitty and hostile social pressure & contempt of course but absolutely no actual "conversion therapy".

Why are some religious groups fighting the ban then?

The Evangelical Alliance has always defended the practice of trying to change or suppress a person's sexuality, with a declaration on its website stating: "We welcome and support the work of those individuals and organisations who responsibly seek to help Christians who experience same-sex attraction as in conflict with their commitment to live in accordance with biblical teaching.

"Some may seek and experience changes in the strength or direction of their same-sex attractions."

Evangelical Christians urge Boris Johnson not to ban conversion therapy | ITV News

The Evangelical Alliance, which represents 3,500 evangelical churches in the UK, has written to the PM urging him not to ban so-called conversion therapy. | ITV National News

www.itv.com

 

[belboid]

Rather than Stonewall - who I think are so dishonest and deceitful about this issue that they are almost impossible to pin down on anything - I suggest you read this statement by Keira Bell for her crowdfunder to sue the Gender Identity Service at the Tavistock. Her twitter is also very honest and thoughtful and she discusses the issues there quite often.

Protect Gender Dysphoric Children from the Affirmation Model

I'm an ex patient of Gender Identity Clinics where I was prescribed dangerous, experimental drugs and received a double mastectomy procedure. I am fighting to stop this from happening to minors.

www.crowdjustice.com

so that's a 'No, I dont have anything from Stonewall saying what I claim they did then.'

 

[co-op]

Why are some religious groups fighting the ban then?

Evangelical Christians urge Boris Johnson not to ban conversion therapy | ITV News

The Evangelical Alliance, which represents 3,500 evangelical churches in the UK, has written to the PM urging him not to ban so-called conversion therapy. | ITV National News

www.itv.com

Fair point, there are evangelical crazies in the UK too and I bet they run conversion camps to bully young gay people too. My point was that it is many decades since gay people have been subjected to conversion therapy by medical or therapeutic professionals in the UK.

 

[belboid]

I am disappointed that other people don’t wanna discuss how the left have created this shit show, and instead wanna discuss yet again whether trans women are actual women.

Because I’ve come to the conclusion that who cares anyway. They deserve to be treated with respect and advocated for, and women deserve sex-based protection, and that’s just the end of it for me. So I’m out.

Probably because most people dont think 'the left' (whoever they are) created this shit show.

 

[smokedout]

so that's a 'No, I dont have anything from Stonewall saying what I claim they did then.'

But the entire purpose of this thread is to evangelicise and put out as many gender critical 'facts' as possible, despite the consensus that discussions on this issue should be limited to the thread in k&s. It doesn't seem to matter to some people that several posters have left over this issue, and that long standing friendships have fractured, a cis man wants to show us what a big tough protecter of women he is so fuck anyone who objects.

 

[co-op]

I have no intention of ending my self-imposed ban from discussing trans issues on u75. But I will respond to this horseshit you are spouting about conversion therapy.

The following chart is from the Government equalities office 2018 national LGBT survey report.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/721704/LGBT-survey-research-report.pdf

View attachment 260845

Gay conversion therapy by health professionals has effectively been ruled unethical for decades in the UK. Yes there are a few crazy religious groups here and there - the report you cite shows much higher rates of "offers" of conversion therapy among religious people, lowest among atheists.

 

[co-op]

But the entire purpose of this thread is to evangelicise and put out as many gender critical 'facts' as possible, despite the consensus that discussions on this issue should be limited to the thread in k&s. It doesn't seem to matter to some people that several posters have left over this issue, and that long standing friendships have fractured, a cis man wants to show us what a big tough protecter of women he is so fuck anyone who objects.

What consensus was that? If you don't want to join the thread just put it on ignore.

And thanks for making assumptions about my sexuality and gender identity.

 

[Edie]

Probably because most people dont think 'the left' (whoever they are) created this shit show.

Who do most people (on here) think has advanced identity politics if not the left?!

 

[Knotted]

Rather than Stonewall - who I think are so dishonest and deceitful about this issue that they are almost impossible to pin down on anything - I suggest you read this statement by Keira Bell for her crowdfunder to sue the Gender Identity Service at the Tavistock. Her twitter is also very honest and thoughtful and she discusses the issues there quite often.

Protect Gender Dysphoric Children from the Affirmation Model

I'm an ex patient of Gender Identity Clinics where I was prescribed dangerous, experimental drugs and received a double mastectomy procedure. I am fighting to stop this from happening to minors.

www.crowdjustice.com

I'm certainly willing to concede that things may have been going wrong here. However this part which is crux:

If a clinician tries to challenge a child's misguided belief or explore its causes with a view to alleviating gender/sex confusion they run the risk of being accused of conversion therapy.

I don't think Keira Bell would be privy to the pressures that clinicians are under.

Stonewall's statement on conversion therapy can be found here:

Protect Gender Dysphoric Children from the Affirmation Model

I'm an ex patient of Gender Identity Clinics where I was prescribed dangerous, experimental drugs and received a double mastectomy procedure. I am fighting to stop this from happening to minors.

www.crowdjustice.com

THE GOVERNMENT EQUALITIES OFFICE SHOULD: ‐Bring forward and implement comprehensive proposals to end the practice of conversion therapy. This includes any form of treatment or psychotherapy that aims to change a person’s sexual orientation or to suppress a person’s gender identity

That's a statement about therapy with an explicit aim to convert. I can't read that as calling for a ban on therapy that explores alternatives to transitioning. Maybe there's a problem with unintended consequences and a lack of clarity over what constitutes conversion therapy, but I don't see them campaigning for a ban on exploring those alternatives.

 

[LDC]

There’s this organisation called

Who do most people (on here) think has advanced identity politics if not the left?!

I think the background to it, and why it has taken hold so much is much more complicated than it just being pushed by the left though. There's lots on it in the specific identity politics thread that's somewhere.

 

[elbows]

Gay conversion therapy by health professionals has effectively been ruled unethical for decades in the UK. Yes there are a few crazy religious groups here and there - the report you cite shows much higher rates of "offers" of conversion therapy among religious people, lowest among atheists.

From the same survey:

 

[Knotted]

What consensus was that? If you don't want to join the thread just put it on ignore.

And thanks for making assumptions about my sexuality and gender identity.

That's a really dickish response. Either look away and leave me to it or get involved and get upset. And I don't think Smokedout is just talking about themselves either.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Cos there isn't a Stonewall link you lieing little prick. Youre just inventing reasons to keep talking about your obsessions.

Not really fair. I nearly posted here a while ago about Keira Bell's case, but decided against the grief in the end. It is a shame that we've reached the point where nobody will raise it here because she is an extremely thoughtful person with a lot of very interesting and relevant points to make. Keira Bell very much does see things as co-op describes, with non-affirmation of gender classified as 'conversion therapy' and so not to be done. From her website:

The Memorandum of Understanding on Conversion Therapy was originally a document rightly created in order to prevent conversion therapy for sexual orientation. However this document was updated in 2017 to include gender identity and it has been signed by many pro-trans institutions, by several psychotherapy bodies and also by the NHS. It regards all gender identities as of equal value and validity and states that no gender identity is to be preferred to any other. Attempts to help change or suppress a gender identity are seen as conversion therapy, unethical and potentially harmful. In practice this means that girls who believe they are boys are to be affirmed in that belief. Similarly boys who believe they are girls are to be affirmed in that belief. This limits the ability of clinicians to help children with these beliefs to be reconciled to their natal sex. If a clinician tries to challenge a child's misguided belief or explore its causes with a view to alleviating gender/sex confusion they run the risk of being accused of conversion therapy. This pressurises clinicians to adopt an affirmative approach to the beliefs of children and young people, affirming the gender they believe they are.

 

[Athos]

Who do most people (on here) think has advanced identity politics if not the left?!

Well-meaning but misguided social liberals, who aren't typically on the left i.e. committed to class struggle, but who are occupying the space left by the retreating old left (meanwhile the right have always embraced identity politics).

 

[belboid]

Who do most people (on here) think has advanced identity politics if not the left?!

I'm not really sure you'd get a definition of IP that we'd all agree with, but it's used by all sorts of people in all sorts of ways. Its a very liberal version of leftyism, at best (and it often isnt at its best)

 

[Edie]

Well-meaning but misguided social liberals, who aren't typically on the left i.e. committed to class struggle.

Yes you’re probably right on reflection. Pretty big Venn diagram overlap tho.

 

[8ball]

I'm not really sure you'd get a definition of IP that we'd all agree with, but it's used by all sorts of people in all sorts of ways. Its a very liberal version of leftyism, at best (and it often isnt at its best)

Let's not forget that the far right indulge in identity politics quite enthusiastically.

 

[Athos]

Not really fair. I nearly posted here a while ago about Keira Bell's case, but decided against the grief in the end. It is a shame that we've reached the point where nobody will raise it here because she is an extremely thoughtful person with a lot of very interesting and relevant points to make. Keira Bell very much does see things as co-op describes, with non-affirmation of gender classified as 'conversion therapy' and so not to be done. From her website:

That's fair enough but co-op overreached in claiming what he did (i.e. that Stonewall describes any non-affirmation as conversion therapy), and then failed to back it up with any evidence.

 

[smokedout]

Who do most people (on here) think has advanced identity politics if not the left?!

Neither the left or identity politics invented trans people, although I don't disagree with your broader point, But in truth much of this, including a lot of the arguments and tactics at play, particularly attempting to split the T from LGBT, has come pretty directly from the conservative right. It's the Murdoch press amongst others who have driven this debate really, the gender critical movement is pretty invisible to most people, The Times, Telegraph and Daily Mail are not.

 

[Knotted]

Not really fair. I nearly posted here a while ago about Keira Bell's case, but decided against the grief in the end. It is a shame that we've reached the point where nobody will raise it here because she is an extremely thoughtful person with a lot of very interesting and relevant points to make. Keira Bell very much does see things as co-op describes, with non-affirmation of gender classified as 'conversion therapy' and so not to be done. From her website:

Co-op was specifically talking about Stonewall and/or other unnamed trans rights groups. He flatly ducked out of showing us what he meant.

 

[Athos]

Yes you’re probably right on reflection. Pretty big Venn diagram overlap tho.

Insofar as they 'identify as', yes; insofar as they 'are', less so!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Co-op was specifically talking about Stonewall and/or other unnamed trans rights groups. He flatly ducked out of showing us what he meant.

The memorandum of understanding that Keira Bell talks about was endorsed by Stonewall.

Memorandum of understanding on conversion therapy in the UK

Problem isn't so much with the text itself as with its interpretation on the ground, I would think. It starts off with this:

For the purposes of this document ’conversion therapy’ is an umbrella term for a therapeutic approach, or any model or individual viewpoint that demonstrates an assumption that any sexual orientation or gender identity is inherently preferable to any other, and which attempts to bring about a change of sexual orientation or gender identity, or seeks to suppress an individual’s expression of sexual orientation or gender identity on that basis.

But it does later on say this:

For people who are unhappy about their sexual orientation or their gender identity, there may be grounds for exploring therapeutic options to help them live more comfortably with it, reduce their distress and reach a greater degree of self-acceptance.

tbh my problem with it is the idea that there is an equivalence between sexual orientation and gender identity. These don't obviously appear to me to be the same kind of thing, but the idea that they are is assumed to be true by this MoU.

 

[Athos]

The memorandum of understanding that Keira Bell talks about was endorsed by Stonewall.

Memorandum of understanding on conversion therapy in the UK

Yes, but that MOU seems to say the opposite of what co-op claims is Stonewall's position, particularly at para 6:

6 This position is not intended to deny, discourage or exclude those with uncertain feelings around sexuality or gender identity from seeking qualified and appropriate help. This document supports therapists to provide appropriately informed and ethical practice when working with a client who wishes to explore, experiences conflict with or is in distress regarding, their sexual orientation or gender identity. Nor is it intended to stop psychological and medical professionals who work with trans and gender questioning clients from performing a clinical assessment of suitability prior to medical intervention. Nor is it intended to stop medical professionals from prescribing hormone treatments and other medications to trans patients and people experiencing gender dysphoria. For people who are unhappy about their sexual orientation or their gender identity, there may be grounds for exploring therapeutic options to help them live more comfortably with it, reduce their distress and reach a greater degree of self-acceptance. Some people may benefit from the support of psychotherapy and counselling to help them manage unhappiness and to clarify their sense of themselves. Clients make healthy choices when they understand themselves better. Ethical practice in these cases requires the practitioner to have adequate knowledge and understanding of gender and sexual diversity and to be free from any agenda that favours one gender identity or sexual orientation as preferable over other gender and sexual diversities. For this reason, it is essential for clinicians to acknowledge the broad spectrum of sexual orientations and gender identities and gender expressions.

 

[co-op]

Stonewall have spent the last god knows how many years replacing the words "sex" or "sexual identity" with the words "gender" and "gender identity" wherever possible and simple adding "or gender identity" when they can't get away with that.

 

[smokedout]

Not really fair. I nearly posted here a while ago about Keira Bell's case, but decided against the grief in the end. It is a shame that we've reached the point where nobody will raise it here because she is an extremely thoughtful person with a lot of very interesting and relevant points to make. Keira Bell very much does see things as co-op describes, with non-affirmation of gender classified as 'conversion therapy' and so not to be done. From her website:

Is that Kiera who recently leapt to Posie Parker's defence after she called for men 'who carry' in the US to start using women's toilets to protect them from the trans?

I think given who Kiera has fallen in with then this piece provides some useful balance: Ideologically-Motivated Detransition as a Conversion Practice- A Personal Account

 

[Knotted]

The memorandum of understanding that Keira Bell talks about was endorsed by Stonewall.

Memorandum of understanding on conversion therapy in the UK

I don't doubt she has an important story to tell, but as I've pointed out above she wouldn't be privy to the pressures clinicians are under and would not have any direct experience of the how the memorandum is applied. It's not clear from that what went wrong and how in this case. I found this statement interesting:

I now reject the harmful concept of gender identity (in terms of your brain and/or soul having a gender) and the idea that someone can be born in the wrong body.

That's actually a crude understanding of what being trans is that I believe a lot of trans people quietly reject. If this is the sort of message and explanation she was being given in therapy sessions, then it seems she was getting poor information on the issues. But anyway, there could be all sorts of things going wrong that aren't traceable to the memorandum on conversion therapy.

 

[co-op]

Not really fair. I nearly posted here a while ago about Keira Bell's case, but decided against the grief in the end. It is a shame that we've reached the point where nobody will raise it here because she is an extremely thoughtful person with a lot of very interesting and relevant points to make.

The silence was deafening on here. And yes who needs the grief. But avoiding it is partly why we're in this mess.

 

[Athos]

Stonewall have spent the last god knows how many years replacing the words "sex" or "sexual identity" with the words "gender" and "gender identity" wherever possible and simple adding "or gender identity" when they can't get away with that.

That may be true, but it's still a long way short of your claim. You should back it up or retract it, else you run the risk of looking like you're playing fast and loose with the truth to further a particular agenda.