Is this woman a transphobe?

[Border Reiver]

Guess not

"What is woman?". "Is a trans woman a woman?"

 

[bimble]

Guess not

This is why I’ve stopped, reading engaging with any of it, because I think it’s a fucking tragedy how much energy has gone into this for years, to the exclusion of all else, from people who (sincerely) see themselves as doing feminism. To the exclusion of all else , that’s an important bit, I’m not saying it’s un-feminist to do this argument just not my best use of my limited resources of energy & anger.

 

[Knotted]

Guess not

I don't think this pedantic biology even has anything to do with trans gender issues.

Wicker Man anybody?

 

[belboid]

Nah, see I wasn't talking about chromosomes, haven't mentioned them once. Criticise my posts on this if you like, but do me the courtesy of reading them first.

You can just say 'oh soz got it wrong'.

 

[hitmouse]

This is where I do have an issue with some of the language that is coming in for these things - in this instance, 'assigned male/female at birth'. What exactly are we talking about there if not sex? But the word 'assign' has connotations of an active role on the part of the assigner, as if it could have been done differently. So later, you can say 'I was assigned male/female at birth, but I'm not really'. I think that misunderstands what is done at birth tbh, and in many instances, it goes as far as suggesting that it was the gender that was being assigned, or as co-op has been saying, that sex is the construct and gender the essential to being, so you can only guess at the essential bit at birth as it only comes out much later.

I think it is precisely the gender that's assigned at birth. They tick a box on your form and the way that you're treated throughout your childhood depends on what box is ticked, in all sorts of ways. And of course it absolutely could be done differently, we could have a society that isn't based around these roles, or defines these roles differently.

 

[co-op]

As we're talking conversion therapy, I think the relevant question here is do you try to condition the child to act their assigned gender. In the words of Kenneth Zucker, "take away the Barbie".

Feminists and trans gender activists should be on the same side on this one.

Conversion therapy historically was trying to change a child's sexuality from gay to straight, it didn't have anything to do with gender role per se. What is happening now is that a section of the TRA world is saying that if a child/young person is presenting saying "I must be trans because I always preferred playing with boys toys and I am attracted to women" that if you say "are you sure you aren't just a GNC lesbian?" then you are indulging in conversion therapy. This is why so many gay people see aspects of trans ideology as homophobic. Instead of being happily gay, a person is supposed to switch to the "correct" sex to justify their sexual and behavioural preferences, this is really deeply heteronormative and reactionary. And, yes "not all trans people" but this is where Stonewall is right now.

 

[iveivan]

"What is woman?". "Is a trans woman a woman?"

Why does that impact feminism? If trans women are or are not women does that negate female oppression?

 

[Border Reiver]

I think it is precisely the gender that's assigned at birth. They tick a box on your form and the way that you're treated throughout your childhood depends on what box is ticked, in all sorts of ways. And of course it absolutely could be done differently, we could have a society that isn't based around these roles, or defines these roles differently.

Gender used to be decided at birth by external genitalia. More recently a blood test confirms or disconfirms that.

 

[8ball]

A person's experience is incorrigible.

Nonsense. A person's experience is always filtered through the lens of the dominant paradigms of the time.

 

[belboid]

Conversion therapy historically was trying to change a child's sexuality from gay to straight, it didn't have anything to do with gender role per se. What is happening now is that a section of the TRA world is saying that if a child/young person is presenting saying "I must be trans because I always preferred playing with boys toys and I am attracted to women" that if you say "are you sure you aren't just a GNC lesbian?" then you are indulging in conversion therapy. This is why so many gay people see aspects of trans ideology as homophobic. Instead of being happily gay, a person is supposed to switch to the "correct" sex to justify their sexual and behavioural preferences, this is really deeply heteronormative and reactionary. And, yes "not all trans people" but this is where Stonewall is right now.

Bull and indeed shit.

 

[Border Reiver]

Why does that impact feminism? If trans women are or are not women does that negate female oppression?

It can be used to suggest that some women should not be defended as women.

 

[Raheem]

A person's experience is incorrigible.

Nonsense. A person's experience is always filtered through the lens of the dominant paradigms of the time.

Both of these statements can be true at the same time.

 

[iveivan]

Conversion therapy historically was trying to change a child's sexuality from gay to straight, it didn't have anything to do with gender role per se. What is happening now is that a section of the TRA world is saying that if a child/young person is presenting saying "I must be trans because I always preferred playing with boys toys and I am attracted to women" that if you say "are you sure you aren't just a GNC lesbian?" then you are indulging in conversion therapy. This is why so many gay people see aspects of trans ideology as homophobic. Instead of being happily gay, a person is supposed to switch to the "correct" sex to justify their sexual and behavioural preferences, this is really deeply heteronormative and reactionary. And, yes "not all trans people" but this is where Stonewall is right now.

Talking to someone about their gender dysphoria is not conversion therapy.

 

[Border Reiver]

Nonsense. A person's experience is always filtered through the lens of the dominant paradigms of the time.

Incorrigible means "cannot be denied by other people". Experience is as it is experienced and its quality is not debatable. If someone says I experience "X" there is no way that that can be disproved.

 

[8ball]

Both of these statements can be true at the same time.

Depends a bit on how "incorrigible" was being used. A person's reflection on their experiences, and subsequent experience of them, is culturally malleable, though.

 

[iveivan]

It can be used to suggest that some women should not be defended as women.

What can be used? Feminism?

Makes zero sense to me. Men and women should be equal but let’s class trans people as separate?

 

[Shechemite]

is disagreeing on the meaning and cause of a persons dysphoria - that is to do with eg suffering trauma, or being autistic, or struggling with adolescence, or struggling with a fucked up society - is that ‘conversion therapy’?

 

[8ball]

Incorrigible means "cannot be denied by other people".

A dictionary might have helped you out here.

 

[Knotted]

Conversion therapy historically was trying to change a child's sexuality from gay to straight, it didn't have anything to do with gender role per se. What is happening now is that a section of the TRA world is saying that if a child/young person is presenting saying "I must be trans because I always preferred playing with boys toys and I am attracted to women" that if you say "are you sure you aren't just a GNC lesbian?" then you are indulging in conversion therapy. This is why so many gay people see aspects of trans ideology as homophobic. Instead of being happily gay, a person is supposed to switch to the "correct" sex to justify their sexual and behavioural preferences, this is really deeply heteronormative and reactionary. And, yes "not all trans people" but this is where Stonewall is right now.

Asking a child a question is not therapy. I suspect that objections to "conversion therapy" (with or without the scare quotes) is at least an objection to some form of therapy (maybe it isn't?). I feel that this is a characterisation of some things that are being said. Can you pin down a statement from eg. Stonewall about "conversion therapy" that you find objectionable?

 

[Border Reiver]

A dictionary might have helped you out here.

You understanding the meaning of "incorrigible" when used about epistemology might have helped you.

 

[co-op]

Talking to someone about their gender dysphoria is not conversion therapy.

It depends doesn't it? Who is talking to who, when, why with what motive. But in my view, especially with young people it is part of a proper therapeutic response to not simply "affirm" the self-diagnosis of being trans. But this is being called conversion therapy by Stonewall now. The reality is that it has been decades since there was any serious attempt at converting gay people by medical or therapeutic practioners in the UK. Of course there probably still are - crackpot religious converters trying it in the US, but here in the UK there is an absolute non-problem with conversion therapy and gay people now. Tons and tons of really shitty and hostile social pressure & contempt of course but absolutely no actual "conversion therapy".

So why has Stonewall launched this great campaign now? Because they've done what they always do now and smooshed "gender identity" in with "sexuality" and are trying to prevent any approach to young people presenting self-diagnosed as Trans except "affirmation". The real conversion therapy ironically is turning gay people straight by transing them, and the charge is being led by Stonewall. It's fecking surreal.

 

[Border Reiver]

A dictionary might have helped you out here.

An understanding of the usage of "incorrigible" in epistemology might have helped you appear better informed.

Incorrigibility - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Athos]

It depends doesn't it? Who is talking to who, when, why with what motive. But in my view, especially with young people it is part of a proper therapeutic response to not simply "affirm" the self-diagnosis of being trans. But this is being called conversion therapy by Stonewall now. The reality is that it has been decades since there was any serious attempt at converting gay people by medical or therapeutic practioners in the UK. Of course there probably still are - crackpot religious converters trying it in the US, but here in the UK there is an absolute non-problem with conversion therapy and gay people now. Tons and tons of really shitty and hostile social pressure & contempt of course but absolutely no actual "conversion therapy".

So why has Stonewall launched this great campaign now? Because they've done what they always do now and smooshed "gender identity" in with "sexuality" and are trying to prevent any approach to young people presenting self-diagnosed as Trans except "affirmation". The real conversion therapy ironically is turning gay people straight by transing them, and the charge is being led by Stonewall. It's fecking surreal.

Do you have any links which show that Stonewall is characterising all non-affirming approaches as conversion therapy?

 

[8ball]

An understanding of the usage of "incorrigible" in epistemology might have helped you appear better informed.

Incorrigibility - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Edie]

I am disappointed that other people don’t wanna discuss how the left have created this shit show, and instead wanna discuss yet again whether trans women are actual women.

Because I’ve come to the conclusion that who cares anyway. They deserve to be treated with respect and advocated for, and women deserve sex-based protection, and that’s just the end of it for me. So I’m out.

 

[smmudge]

This is why so many gay people see aspects of trans ideology as homophobic. Instead of being happily gay, a person is supposed to switch to the "correct" sex to justify their sexual and behavioural preferences, this is really deeply heteronormative and reactionary. And, yes "not all trans people" but this is where Stonewall is right now.

And also, so many gay people wish that you wouldn't try to talk on behalf of them, or presume you know what they see. Thank you.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Conversion therapy historically was trying to change a child's sexuality from gay to straight, it didn't have anything to do with gender role per se. What is happening now is that a section of the TRA world is saying that if a child/young person is presenting saying "I must be trans because I always preferred playing with boys toys and I am attracted to women" that if you say "are you sure you aren't just a GNC lesbian?" then you are indulging in conversion therapy. This is why so many gay people see aspects of trans ideology as homophobic. Instead of being happily gay, a person is supposed to switch to the "correct" sex to justify their sexual and behavioural preferences, this is really deeply heteronormative and reactionary. And, yes "not all trans people" but this is where Stonewall is right now.

Claiming someone said something on twitter so you can bore us to do death about how you don't accept trans women are women and undermine campaigns against conversion therapy. Fuck me what a world.

 

[co-op]

Asking a child a question is not therapy. I suspect that objections to "conversion therapy" (with or without the scare quotes) is at least an objection to some form of therapy (maybe it isn't?). I feel that this is a characterisation of some things that are being said. Can you pin down a statement from eg. Stonewall about "conversion therapy" that you find objectionable?

Rather than Stonewall - who I think are so dishonest and deceitful about this issue that they are almost impossible to pin down on anything - I suggest you read this statement by Keira Bell for her crowdfunder to sue the Gender Identity Service at the Tavistock. Her twitter is also very honest and thoughtful and she discusses the issues there quite often.

Protect Gender Dysphoric Children from the Affirmation Model

I'm an ex patient of Gender Identity Clinics where I was prescribed dangerous, experimental drugs and received a double mastectomy procedure. I am fighting to stop this from happening to minors.

www.crowdjustice.com

 

[iveivan]

The argument by Stonewall is against trying to ‘cure’ trans people by therapy.

 

[co-op]

And also, so many gay people wish that you wouldn't try to talk on behalf of them, or presume you know what they see. Thank you.

yes and many wish that Stonewall would just come out as a trans organisation and stop faking its representation of lesbian, gay & bi people. But thanks for assuming.