They do need to interpret the meaning of it though.
And for humans, meaning-making is inherently cultural and linguistic.
Is this woman a transphobe?
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And for humans, meaning-making is inherently cultural and linguistic.
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
Well we do have logos
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
Not with you on either count. I don’t think “meaning making” in anything like a human context applies to the threat detection in a lot of animals, and where it applies to humans I don’t think it is necessarily cultural or linguistic.
A pre-verbal baby can recognise a threat.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
We can't know anything about how an animal experiences threat-detection, so we can't properly attach a label to the experience, or really even understand it as being an experience at all.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
We can know plenty. Unless you're going down the route that we can't know any experience other than our own, in which case that applies to all other humans as well, there's plenty we can know about the minds of other animals if we allow a slightly less rigorous, but far from unreasonable, standard of 'know'.
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
We can’t know much about how a newborn experiences it either. I’m not convinced this analysis really relates well to humans in general, though. It seems like a desperate attempt to erase an element of our animal nature. The left does that a lot, and it always strikes me as a fools’ errand
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
gender dysphoria can’t be a pre meaning-making, purely embodied experience then?
pseudonarcissus
fluttering and dancing
I think the point was about someone being banned from social media for allegedly being transphobic.
I think the offensive bit of the original article was:
I believe in biological reality and do not subscribe to the notion of gender identity especially when it damages women and girls
I think Border Riever's point was that he does subscribe to the notion of gender identity. How well sourced the medicalisation opinion is, and the definitions are, I am not qualified to say. The problem with discussion of trans issues on urban is that it quickly becomes very emotional and agressive. I don't think this is productive.
As far as I am aware, we have chased away any actual trans people that tried to engage with this issue.
I'm not sure what your point is. Is gender dysphoria a "real" medical complaint, imagined, like some sort of Munchausen syndrome, or what the victorians would have lumped under hysteria? Or just chaps wanting to wear dresses and spy on young girls in the changing rooms?
In any of the first three cases above people should be treated with respect and afforded their rights. Any medical interventions are probably best discussed between them and their medical professionals. I know lots of people here are very well informed, but fighting over blanket medical opinions by non-professionals, or professionals not acting in the field, is not going to get us anywhere. It tends to discourage anyone with first hand knowledge from participating in the debate.
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
I don’t think so. I was just talking about the limits of that filter. I think a kind of disgust reflex when it comes to one’s own body could be though (only tentatively tbf).
Actually I think they're very very used to it.
Border Reiver
Active Member
Yes. I have been trying to close the diversion.
But you're done now.
Border Reiver
Active Member
I have put kabbes on ignore. He kept on sealioning.
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
While a lot of your post makes sense (to me), I think you’re mischaracterising where kabbes is coming from.
What's sealioning?
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
gender isn’t essential to a person. We agree on that. It’s a socially mediated experience. So gender dysphoria cannot be a pre-meaning-making, embodied experience?
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pseudonarcissus
fluttering and dancing
Quite possibly, and I apologise if I have upset them. But we are fighting over what is, or is not, happening in someone else's head. If you were confronting gender identity issues and looked at the tone of the last few pages, would you wish to engage?
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
Border weavers posts do make me think of this thread.
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Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
I’ve talked openly about my own dysphoria on here. I’ve coped.
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
Debates over what is essential to a person are likely to be an infinite rabbit hole imo.
That’s regardless of whether I agree with you on that point by the way.
Trans people don’t exactly have an infinite number of postulated cultures to go and live in.
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
Fair enough.
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
That’s a good point. A lot of people are trying to figure this out in their own heads. I don’t trust any of the pat answers (or even most of the more nuanced answers in this area). It’s a bit different to other struggles because there seems like so much more potential to do harm, even with the best intentions.
I didn’t enter this conversation in any of the points about personal experience. I entered it when an individual started to claim that personal experience rendered the power relations associated with reproductive classes to be irrelevant and asserted a bifurcation of emotion from cognition as part of this claim.
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
Border Reiver
Active Member
Persistently questioning statements and asking for evidence about minor of side issues.
I was simply trying to point out that being transgender is not identical to gender dysphoria. He was challenging the concept of gender dysphoria, not its usage by asking more and more off topic questions.
Maybe you’re as bad at understanding long-studied animal behavioural responses as I am at analogies
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
Maybe you’re as bad at understanding long-studied animal behavioural responses as I am at analogies
It’s fair to say we can’t experience anything like it from the inside. We can just glean some insights from what it does.
editor
hiraethified
It's when people suddenly start spinning big balls on their noses and making a noise with their flippers in the hope of being thrown some juicy fish.
I think.
