Is this woman a transphobe?

[kabbes]

They don’t need a culture and language for that.

They do need to interpret the meaning of it though.

And for humans, meaning-making is inherently cultural and linguistic.

 

[Shechemite]

Well we do have logos

 

[8ball]

They do need to interpret the meaning of it though.

And for humans, meaning-making is inherently cultural and linguistic.

Not with you on either count. I don’t think “meaning making” in anything like a human context applies to the threat detection in a lot of animals, and where it applies to humans I don’t think it is necessarily cultural or linguistic.

A pre-verbal baby can recognise a threat.

 

[Raheem]

Not with you on either count. I don’t think “meaning making” anything like a human context applies to the threat detection in a lot of animals, and where it applies to humans I don’t think it is necessarily cultural or linguistic.

We can't know anything about how an animal experiences threat-detection, so we can't properly attach a label to the experience, or really even understand it as being an experience at all.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

We can't know anything about how an animal experiences threat-detection, so we can't properly attach a label to the experience, or really even understand it as being an experience at all.

We can know plenty. Unless you're going down the route that we can't know any experience other than our own, in which case that applies to all other humans as well, there's plenty we can know about the minds of other animals if we allow a slightly less rigorous, but far from unreasonable, standard of 'know'.

 

[8ball]

We can't know anything about how an animal experiences threat-detection, so we can't properly attach a label to the experience, or really even understand it as being an experience at all.

We can’t know much about how a newborn experiences it either. I’m not convinced this analysis really relates well to humans in general, though. It seems like a desperate attempt to erase an element of our animal nature. The left does that a lot, and it always strikes me as a fools’ errand

 

[Shechemite]

gender dysphoria can’t be a pre meaning-making, purely embodied experience then?

 

[pseudonarcissus]

Depends what the point being made was. Border Reiver was resting an awful lot of statements on highly contestable claims, but that’s just them.

I think the point was about someone being banned from social media for allegedly being transphobic.

I think the offensive bit of the original article was:

I believe in biological reality and do not subscribe to the notion of gender identity especially when it damages women and girls

I think Border Riever's point was that he does subscribe to the notion of gender identity. How well sourced the medicalisation opinion is, and the definitions are, I am not qualified to say. The problem with discussion of trans issues on urban is that it quickly becomes very emotional and agressive. I don't think this is productive.

As far as I am aware, we have chased away any actual trans people that tried to engage with this issue.

I'm not sure what your point is. Is gender dysphoria a "real" medical complaint, imagined, like some sort of Munchausen syndrome, or what the victorians would have lumped under hysteria? Or just chaps wanting to wear dresses and spy on young girls in the changing rooms?

In any of the first three cases above people should be treated with respect and afforded their rights. Any medical interventions are probably best discussed between them and their medical professionals. I know lots of people here are very well informed, but fighting over blanket medical opinions by non-professionals, or professionals not acting in the field, is not going to get us anywhere. It tends to discourage anyone with first hand knowledge from participating in the debate.

 

[8ball]

gender dysphoria can’t be a pre meaning-making, purely embodied experience then?

I don’t think so. I was just talking about the limits of that filter. I think a kind of disgust reflex when it comes to one’s own body could be though (only tentatively tbf).

 

[Santino]

I think Border Reiver is unused to talking to people that have knowledge about the things they like to refer to.

Actually I think they're very very used to it.

 

[Border Reiver]

have we strayed away from the point?

Yes. I have been trying to close the diversion.

 

[Santino]

Yes. I have been trying to close the diversion.

But you're done now.

 

[Border Reiver]

But you're done now.

I have put kabbes on ignore. He kept on sealioning.

 

[8ball]

I think the point was about someone being banned from social media for allegedly being transphobic.

I think the offensive bit of the original article was:

I believe in biological reality and do not subscribe to the notion of gender identity especially when it damages women and girls

I think Border Riever's point was that he does subscribe to the notion of gender identity. How well sourced the medicalisation opinion is, and the definitions are, I am not qualified to say. The problem with discussion of trans issues on urban is that it quickly becomes very emotional and agressive. I don't think this is productive.

As far as I am aware, we have chased away any actual trans people that tried to engage with this issue.

I'm not sure what your point is. Is gender dysphoria a "real" medical complaint, imagined, like some sort of Munchausen syndrome, or what the victorians would have lumped under hysteria? Or just chaps wanting to wear dresses and spy on young girls in the changing rooms?

In any of the first three cases above people should be treated with respect and afforded their rights. Any medical interventions are probably best discussed between them and their medical professionals. I know lots of people here are very well informed, but fighting over blanket medical opinions by non-professionals, or professionals not acting in the field, is not going to get us anywhere. It tends to discourage anyone with first hand knowledge from participating in the debate.

While a lot of your post makes sense (to me), I think you’re mischaracterising where kabbes is coming from.

 

[Santino]

I have put kabbes on ignore. He kept on sealioning.

What's sealioning?

 

[Shechemite]

gender isn’t essential to a person. We agree on that. It’s a socially mediated experience. So gender dysphoria cannot be a pre-meaning-making, embodied experience?

 

[pseudonarcissus]

I think you’re mischaracterising where kabbes is coming from.

Quite possibly, and I apologise if I have upset them. But we are fighting over what is, or is not, happening in someone else's head. If you were confronting gender identity issues and looked at the tone of the last few pages, would you wish to engage?

 

[Shechemite]

What's sealioning?

Border weavers posts do make me think of this thread.

https://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/views-on-the-politics-of-unrecovery-from-mental-health-groups-like-recovery-in-the-bin-and-mental-health-resistance-network.370168/

 

[Shechemite]

Quite possibly, and I apologise if I have upset them. But we are fighting over what is, or is not, happening in someone else's head. If you were confronting gender identity issues and looked at the tone of the last few pages, would you wish to engage?

I’ve talked openly about my own dysphoria on here. I’ve coped.

 

[8ball]

gender isn’t essential to a person.

Debates over what is essential to a person are likely to be an infinite rabbit hole imo.
That’s regardless of whether I agree with you on that point by the way.

Trans people don’t exactly have an infinite number of postulated cultures to go and live in.

 

[Shechemite]

Debates over what is essential to a person are likely to be an infinite rabbit hole imo.
That’s regardless of whether I agree with you on that point by the way.

Trans people don’t exactly have an infinite number of postulated cultures to go and live in.

Fair enough.

 

[8ball]

Quite possibly, and I apologise if I have upset them. But we are fighting over what is, or is not, happening in someone else's head. If you were confronting gender identity issues and looked at the tone of the last few pages, would you wish to engage?

That’s a good point. A lot of people are trying to figure this out in their own heads. I don’t trust any of the pat answers (or even most of the more nuanced answers in this area). It’s a bit different to other struggles because there seems like so much more potential to do harm, even with the best intentions.

 

[kabbes]

Quite possibly, and I apologise if I have upset them. But we are fighting over what is, or is not, happening in someone else's head. If you were confronting gender identity issues and looked at the tone of the last few pages, would you wish to engage?

I didn’t enter this conversation in any of the points about personal experience. I entered it when an individual started to claim that personal experience rendered the power relations associated with reproductive classes to be irrelevant and asserted a bifurcation of emotion from cognition as part of this claim.

 

[Balbi]

I left two years ago and this thread was happening somewhere else on the boards, now it's happening here.

Happy trans day of visibility everyone.

See you in another two years.

 

[8ball]

I left two years ago and this thread was happening somewhere else on the boards, now it's happening here.

Happy trans day of visibility everyone.

See you in another two years.

Hey Balbi.
Hope it at least looks different when you’re next in.

 

[Border Reiver]

What's sealioning?

Persistently questioning statements and asking for evidence about minor of side issues.

I was simply trying to point out that being transgender is not identical to gender dysphoria. He was challenging the concept of gender dysphoria, not its usage by asking more and more off topic questions.

 

[Spanner]

We can't know anything about how an animal experiences threat-detection, so we can't properly attach a label to the experience, or really even understand it as being an experience at all.

Maybe you’re as bad at understanding long-studied animal behavioural responses as I am at analogies

 

[Sue]

This...ahem...new poster doesn't half go on while trying to avoid actually debating stuff.

(((Sealions)))

 

[8ball]

Maybe you’re as bad at understanding long-studied animal behavioural responses as I am at analogies

It’s fair to say we can’t experience anything like it from the inside. We can just glean some insights from what it does.

 

[editor]

What's sealioning?

It's when people suddenly start spinning big balls on their noses and making a noise with their flippers in the hope of being thrown some juicy fish.

I think.