Is there any validity in the "Men's Movement"?

[D'wards]

I'm not advocating this at all, but its a topic worthy of discussion.

There are some areas where men do have it a lot tougher than women; rights over children born or unborn, suicide rates are much higher for men, men die a lot younger, male victims of domestic abuse or sexual assault not taken seriously, either by the police or wider society.

Although these are terrible problems for those involved, obviously men have largely had it our own way for thousands of years, and i'm not comparing the struggles of the two sexes at all.

I once strayed onto a "masculinist" website, and they were all tossers to a man. Just rampant mysogynism rather than addressing the important points where men need a little help.

I would say on balance an official men's movement is unnecessary and likely to be a pretty unpleasant thing, but i'd like to hear an opposing view, if there is one around here.

 

[quimcunx]

Men against the patriarchy?

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

Is there or could there potentially be?

 

[D'wards]

Is there or could there potentially be?

Hmm, potentially

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

Hmm, potentially

Potentially yes, then. Those are genuine issues you mention. I think you'd need to start by acknowledging they're not caused by a mass conspiracy of evil women though, and from what I've seen of the men's rights movement they tend to fall over there.

 

[toggle]

There are some areas where men do have it a lot tougher than women; rights over children born or unborn, suicide rates are much higher for men, men die a lot younger, male victims of domestic abuse or sexual assault not taken seriously, either by the police or wider society.

These are all the effect of a patriarchal system that polices the behavior of men and descriminates against those that do not fit the expected patterns, as it has done so against women. a men's movement that sought to attack the way males are characterised by a sexist system would have my full support. Instead they ignore the structural inequalities that screw over us all in favour of assuming that these problems are caused by feminists/feminism/fucking evil women. so what you get is a movement that is fighting against the only grouping (ish) that really recognises the causal factor of their problems.

it's fucking frustrating, but it's caused by feminism not looking at these issues earlier imo. we attacked, successfully, some of the structural inequalities facing women. we allowed women to have a far greater range of options. still major issues there, but it's certainly better than 100 years ago. but no one attacked the limitations on men and masculinity. the range wasn't really widened for men. the examples above, suicide/dv - you're still discouraged from being emotional or asking for help or admitting to not being strong. i can be more like that traditional male stereotype, but you can't be more like the traditional feminine one, without facing a LOT more behavior policing than I would.

but the MRA lot, fucking idiots who are fighting to make their problems worse.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

No. There is no need for a men's movement, and the people who are trying to create one are almost always creepy misogynists.

 

[eoin_k]

There was a small men's movement in the 1970s, which was pro-feminist FWIW.

 

[Glitter]

Anyone who seriously talks about a Men's Movement or Men's Rights is always, without fail, an absolute fucking helmet.

There's no thinking about wider issues, no concept of the fact that patriachy causes the problems they bleat on about, just a self centred 'what about me' rhetoric rooted in deep seated misogyny.

Fuck 'em.

 

[8ball]

There was a small men's movement in the 1970s, which was pro-feminist FWIW.

Was that the 'going out into the woods for an evening of hugging and howling at the moon' thing?

 

[8115]

There could be. Sometimes, I like to spend time with other women. Some men like to spend time with other men. There is, such a thing as being female and being male, and I think, for some people, it's healthy for them to have space to think about this.

But I'm not sure I'd go so far as to endorse a men's movement. Maybe rename it.

There's definitely a good argument that our concept of masculinity and what it means to be male in our society is deeply messed up, so anyone who wants to redefine that is ok by me (as long as they want to redefine it in a way I agree with).

 

[eoin_k]

Was that the 'going out into the woods for an evening of hugging and howling at the moon' thing?

Not sure about moon howling. The scene I am thinking of included people involved with the magazine Achille's Heel:

http://www.grassrootsfeminism.net/cms/node/712

 

[8ball]

Not sure about moon howling. The scene I am thinking of included people involved with the magazine Achille's Heel:

http://www.grassrootsfeminism.net/cms/node/712

Ah, right. That's slightly different to the more hippieish bunch I was thinking of.
Does it link up with the New Man thing that was roundly trashed and ridiculed by the media?

 

[Sirena]

Was that the 'going out into the woods for an evening of hugging and howling at the moon' thing?

No that didn't come till about 15 years later....

The 70s men's groups were looking at patriarchy and their role in that. It was really the first time men had questioned their role in the oppression of women so it was a new form of consciousness-raising discussion. The premise was good but it was all a bit too 'worthy' and self-flagellating to last much beyond the mid 70s.

 

[Orang Utan]

I wish there was a decent pejorative word for the kind of man who thinks men get a rawer deal than women.

 

[8ball]

The 70s men's groups were looking at patriarchy and their role in that. It was really the first time men had questioned their role in the oppression of women so it was a new form of consciousness-raising discussion. The premise was good but it was all a bit too 'worthy' and self-flagellating to last much beyond the mid 70s.

Too 'worthy'? 'Worthy' things seem quite popular. As do self-flagellating things in certain circles.

Questioning their role in the oppression of women seems worthwhile - do you get many talks at feminist conferences where women do the same?

 

[Corax]

Male engagement on this stuff is essential.

There's already a word for it. It's unfortunate that the word is what it is, but it's what we've got.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I find it impossible to imagine how any specific concentration on issues faced by men would not be immediately filled with reactionary tossers.

Tbh I've never found it difficult to talk about harm done to men by gender stereotypes within existing structures for talking about gender politics anyway - and it's a topic that incenses me, particularly as I grow older and see the same bullshit that fucked me up fucking kids up now.

 

[8ball]

I wish there was a decent pejorative word for the kind of man who thinks men get a rawer deal than women.

Isn't it MRA?

 

[Orang Utan]

Isn't it MRA?

What's that?

 

[8ball]

I find it impossible to imagine how any specific concentration on issues faced by men would not be immediately filled with reactionary tossers.

<shakes fist at 'testicular cancer awareness' bastards>

They just want an excuse to tough themselves up.

 

[8ball]

What's that?

Men's Rights Activist. They're not aware it's an insult, obviously, but it's so much easier when these people voluntarily identify themselves.

 

[Orang Utan]

Men's Rights Activist. They're not aware it's an insult, obviously, but it's so much easier when these people voluntarily identify themselves.

Not snappy enough. Needs to be a word with just one or two syllables, and not have any traces of misogyny.

 

[8ball]

Not snappy enough. Needs to be a word with just one or two syllables, and not have any traces of misogyny.

'Cunt' is already taken, and too non-specific.

...and tbf has traces of misogyny...

 

[Orang Utan]

'Cunt' is already taken, and too non-specific.

...and tbf has traces of misogyny...

Indeed. And the American equivalent to the British use of cunt is douchebag, which surely has traces of misogyny.

 

[Delroy Booth]

There might be some legitimate issues here, definitely on the issue of suicide, and a lot of the time I think the line that "patriachy harms men too" is correct but isn't sufficient to explain or deal with these things in their entirety, that's a good start but it's a start not a conclusion, but on the other hand I've never come accross any sort of Mens Rights movement that wasn't filled to the brim with the most disgusting misogynistic women-hating arseholes so I hold no faith whatsoever that we'll see a Men's Rights movement come along to deal with these problems that some men face.

 

[8ball]

Indeed. And the American equivalent to the British use of cunt is douchebag, which surely has traces of misogyny.

I'd have thought the American equivalent would be a beefed-up version of 'asshole'... but yeah, an easy but monicker is going to be tricky.

 

[Manter]

<<snip>>
There are some areas where men do have it a lot tougher than women; rights over children born or unborn, <<snip>>

Men can't have rights over unborn children. They are foetuses, and part of their mothers. What that means is men asking for rights over women's bodies and that isn't ok.

The other things you raise are perfectly valid, but right over foetuses is straying into a very far right, anti choice, religious fringe (which is, unfortunately taking root in parts if the US, cf Bode Miller)

 

[fredfelt]

More of a support group than a movement, but this is relatively new and seemingly based on sound foundations.

http://www.menssheds.org.uk/

 

[pogofish]

I'm not advocating this at all, but its a topic worthy of discussion.

We have had two discussions on just this recently - Do these particular arseholes really deserve any more?

eg
www.urban75.net/forums/threads/unbelievable-misogyny-trigger-warnings.317569/
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/the-manosphere-oh-dear-god-no.315822/

Never mind those two utter car crash threads from before that were rooted in "Manosphere" balderdash!