Is obesity a disability?

[Nancy_Winks]

So often you need to solve the "something else going on" in order to address the obesity.

That was a badly worded post. What I meant was in what way is that relevant to if obesity is a disability or not. It seems irrelevant to me.

 

[ViolentPanda]

But 'obesity', a specific bmi, being x stone 'overweight' or whatever language you might want to use isn't itself a disability.

Edit: may well of course up the chances of getting medical conditions or complications, but not itself one.

...anyway, that's all a bit medical, the other way of looking at it is using the social model of disability.

Also, lets make this very clear, obesity as defined by being an outlier on the BMI curve is shot through with all sorts of issues, not least that BMI as used by your GPs etc is predicated on the "norms" of a WASP population.

 

[ViolentPanda]

That was a badly worded post. What I meant was in what way is that relevant to if obesity is a disability or not. It seems irrelevant to me.

I don't think we can say "obesity is a disability" or "obesity isn't a disability". We can only say "in this case it is", or "in this case it isn't", based on individual cases. That said, I think that declaring "obesity is a disability" will be self-defeating for any state trying to deal with the so-called "obesity epidemic", because it provides de-motivated people with an excuse not to even try to change their lives. We need to say "obesity can be a disability, and we need to treat causes, not just provide weight-loss solutions". Because bear in mind, about 70% of weight loss is transient, and gets put back on within 2 years.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well food itself can be an addiction. Comfort eating is no different than self medicating with booze or smack or whatever really. Food interacts with pleasure receptors. It's not discounted in rehab put it that way.

One schoolmate who went on to become a smack addict pretty much became addicted to food after getting clean, both through swapping one vice for another, and because he'd pretty much lost the conception of food as anything but an occasional inconvenience to his daily smack-using routine.

 

[ViolentPanda]

If it's gonna be law tho there's got to be some objective measure like BMI I guess.

If only BMI was objective, but it's as subjective as fuck!

 

[Utopia]

No not at all, obesity is generally through laziness, poor diet, lack of exercise and over eating, simple as that.....so its usually self-inflicted.

Disability is normally through no fault of their own so they deserve all the help & benefits that come from being registered disabled.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Surely the measurement can be most simply expressed in terms of diagnosing the extent of mobility issues?


Person has mobility problems which restrict them going about their lives or they don't. Obese or not. I don't see the need for extra categories.

I'm morbidly obese. I wouldn't class a disabled, but I am developing arthritic knees, which - while doubtlessly obesity-related - are eventually going to prove to be a disability in their own right.

TBF, "doubtlessly obesity-related" isn't necessarily the case. It also depends on how sedentary your lifestyle is, etc. The less sedentary, the more likely you get early wear and tear on your joints (although the exercise will also improve your muscles, which will alleviate some of the wear and tear problems for a while).

 

[ViolentPanda]

No not at all, obesity is generally through laziness, poor diet, lack of exercise and over eating, simple as that.....so its usually self-inflicted.

Disability is normally through no fault of their own so they deserve all the help & benefits that come from being registered disabled.

You either really don't have a clue what you're talking about, or you're an extremely pisspoor troll. It is, of course, possible that you're both.

 

[Teaboy]

No not at all, obesity is generally through laziness, poor diet, lack of exercise and over eating, simple as that.....so its usually self-inflicted.

Disability is normally through no fault of their own so they deserve all the help & benefits that come from being registered disabled.

You bored?

 

[Citizen66]

No not at all, obesity is generally through laziness, poor diet, lack of exercise and over eating, simple as that.....so its usually self-inflicted.

Disability is normally through no fault of their own so they deserve all the help & benefits that come from being registered disabled.

"lol"

 

[ViolentPanda]

This part should have fuck all to do with anything.

Care and compassion should be extended to everyone. A hierarchy of worthiness of disability is a tory and a cunt's game.

Quite. It's as invidious as attempting to establish a hierarchy of suffering - ooh, my fatal disease is worse than your fatal disease - and misses the point that suffering is suffering.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Conversely, is anorexia a disability?

I'd answer that with "it's a serious mental health issue which can and often does have extremely physically-disabling effects, so yes".

 

[kittyP]

It's certainly an issue where both sides of the treatment coin are apparent.
One of the things that Greebo and I noticed in Germany last time we were there, was how many parks and pieces of public land had robustly-made basic gym equipment for public use - almost like a playground for adults - and that this kit was quite widely used, because people walked past the public spaces doing their daily business, and kind of made time to spend 10-15 minutes building up a sweat without having to go to a membership gym and change into expensive clothing etc. People took responsibility for themselves because the state made it cheaper and easier for them to do so.
From what I recall, the cost-benefit analysis to the German healthcare industry meant a steady flow of sponsorship for providing these facilities.

There are quite a lot of these outdoor Gyms in London parks now. Sponsored by Adidas I think.
I dunno how many in comparison to Germany though.

 

[maomao]

There are quite a lot of these outdoor Gyms in London parks now. Sponsored by Adidas I think.

We've got one. It's very badly vandalised and unusable.

 

[Lord Hugh]

Just to address the "calories in and calories out" thing, the mental health side of things notwithstanding:

That view of the body as some kind of perfect and homogenous conversion system is incorrect. Obviously, because otherwise everyone would be the same. The whole makeup of the body determines how incoming "calories" (not all calories are equal - it's a buzzphrase, but true) are processed and converted - metabolism and hormones are not some sort of static process, but an ever-evolving and shifting system produced by genetic influences and environmental development. Cumulative effects over the lifetime, along with the genetic + developmental startpoint, lead to the very different endpoints in the "conversion engine". This is why different drugs you are on affect your weight gain or loss, this is why insulin resistance affects your weight, this is why some people have that "natural advantage" and don't accumulate metabolic damage (for want of a better phrase) which, over time, fecks up your ability to process food as efficiently as others, death-by-a-thousand-cuts style. You can work against it with exercise and so on, but it is always more of an uphill struggle for some than others.

 

[kittyP]

We've got one. It's very badly vandalised and unusable.

Oh shame.
We used to take the kids from my old work to one and considering where it was, I was surprised that it was still fully functioning after a year

I think a lot sprung up when we won the Olympic bid.
Now that is all over they will probably be left to rot.

 

[Lord Hugh]

No not at all, obesity is generally through laziness, poor diet, lack of exercise and over eating, simple as that.....so its usually self-inflicted.

Disability is normally through no fault of their own so they deserve all the help & benefits that come from being registered disabled.

Your post is stupid and you're being a dick, but it does raise the point:

What is "laziness" within the context? Why are some people more inclined to take care of their food intake (quantity and quality), and why are some more successful? Why do some people get a great buzz and a great amount of success from exercise, while others end up out of breath, discouraged and with dodgy knees? Your term of "laziness" is a judgement term which presupposes everyone has an equal chance and body, and that they cognitively chose to become this way without any issues, mental, physical or circumstancial, becoming part of those decisions. Yup, I guess you're right there.

 

[kittyP]

Just to address the "calories in and calories out" thing, the mental health side of things notwithstanding:

That view of the body as some kind of perfect and homogenous conversion system is incorrect. Obviously, because otherwise everyone would be the same. The whole makeup of the body determines how incoming "calories" (not all calories are equal - it's a buzzphrase, but true) are processed and converted - metabolism and hormones are not some sort of static process, but an ever-evolving and shifting system produced by genetic influences and environmental development. Cumulative effects over the lifetime, along with the genetic + developmental startpoint, lead to the very different endpoints in the "conversion engine". This is why different drugs you are on affect your weight gain or loss, this is why insulin resistance affects your weight, this is why some people have that "natural advantage" and don't accumulate metabolic damage (for want of a better phrase) which, over time, fecks up your ability to process food as efficiently as others, death-by-a-thousand-cuts style. You can work against it with exercise and so on, but it is always more of an uphill struggle for some than others.

Thank you for that

One of my sisters friends has always been incredibly thin.
She used to get bullied for it and also constant concerned criticism like "you really need to go and get help with your eating disorder" and such.
She did not have an eating disorder. Her thyroid (and everything else) was fine. She ate loads. She was/is just naturally very very thin.
At one point in her teens she was buying the protein powders that body builders use, in secret

 

[Utopia]

My point is that, normally obesity is self inflicted, ok maybe 5% have a few mental issues but the rest simply eat way too much of the wrong foods and do not exercise at all, not even a walk in the park or from work which doesn't cost a thing......i've got no time for greedy or lazy people, and neither, does it seem, has nature.

 

[kittyP]

Your post is stupid and you're being a dick, but it does raise the point:

What is "laziness" within the context? Why are some people more inclined to take care of their food intake (quantity and quality), and why are some more successful? Why do some people get a great buzz and a great amount of success from exercise, while others end up out of breath, discouraged and with dodgy knees? Your term of "laziness" is a judgement term which presupposes everyone has an equal chance and body, and that they cognitively chose to become this way without any issues, mental, physical or circumstancial, becoming part of those decisions. Yup, I guess you're right there.

Due to my old line of work and the training I used to run as part of it, I decided a while ago to pretty much remove the word "lazy" from my vocabulary.
It is such a negative and loaded word and causes nothing but ill feeling for all concerned.
Lazy...? You can't do fuck all about lazy can you? Apart from get cross.
I believe that "lacking motivation" covers where that word would be used and "lacking motivation" is something that can be looked at, tackled and hopefully improved on.

 

[kittyP]

My point is that, normally obesity is self inflicted, ok maybe 5% have a few mental issues but the rest simply eat way too much of the wrong foods and do not exercise at all, not even a walk in the park or from work which doesn't cost a thing......i've got no time for greedy or lazy people, and neither, does it seem, has nature.

You are a bitter and rude person if this is how you generally are.
Your lack of empathy is really sad.

 

[Pickman's model]

My point is that, normally obesity is self inflicted, ok maybe 5% have a few mental issues but the rest simply eat way too much of the wrong foods and do not exercise at all, not even a walk in the park or from work which doesn't cost a thing......i've got no time for greedy or lazy people, and neither, does it seem, has nature.

so what the fuck are you doing on urban then?

 

[Sasaferrato]

So why are the majority of psychiatric patients still overweight?

Inactivity mainly.

My sister in law had an acute psychotic episode a few years back (complex case, she also suffers from lupus. She was looking after the hiuse whilst we were on holiday, hence was admitted to our local hospital. She was in from the middle of August until the following January. We were up visiting seven days a week for that time.

The patients spent their time sitting around doing nothing. Other than board games, there were no recreational facilities.

As I said, that was a few years back, but unless things have changed in the interim, I can fully understand why people were overweight. I would be myself in that scenario.

 

[Citizen66]

My point is that, normally obesity is self inflicted, ok maybe 5% have a few mental issues but the rest simply eat way too much of the wrong foods and do not exercise at all, not even a walk in the park or from work which doesn't cost a thing......i've got no time for greedy or lazy people, and neither, does it seem, has nature.

So why hasn't 'nature' dealt with the Westminster piggies?

 

[Sasaferrato]

Technically the vast majority of what your saying is correct.

Energy in - energy out

But to simplify to just and only that I think helps no one.

I'm not saying ignore that side of it but it far more complicated and many faceted than that.

I didn't say that it wasn't. I was replying to the specific point that you cannot make something out of nothing. There is much more to obesity than a simple matter of physics.

So, where, as a society, do we go from here? Ignoring the problem, and it is a problem, won't make it go away.

As I see it, a solution is going to cost a great deal of money. (Ignoring it will also cost a great deal of money).

Because it is multi-factorial, resolution has to start with the cause of overeating, a weight loss regime on its own will not work. It is rather like giving analgesia for a broken leg, but doing nothing to repair the leg. The cause has to be discovered and treated, then you have someone who is in a position to lose weight.

 

[Lord Hugh]

My point is that, normally obesity is self inflicted, ok maybe 5% have a few mental issues but the rest simply eat way too much of the wrong foods and do not exercise at all, not even a walk in the park or from work which doesn't cost a thing......i've got no time for greedy or lazy people, and neither, does it seem, has nature.

It's a seriously terrible point you are making and shows you are trying to simplify, with a judgemental attitude, an issue which involves huge factors ranging far beyond a single person. Increasing industrialisation and food availability, mass production and engineering of foods, overwhelmingness of food and contradictory body-image messages in culture and media. It's easy to call somebody lazy if they can't do something that you can - it's easy for me to do, so it should be easy for others, right? It's harder to ask on a personal and in-depth level why they actually aren't doing the things you are, and why they feel like that.

 

[Sasaferrato]

So why hasn't 'nature' dealt with the Westminster piggies?

A valid point. The number of Westminster interviewees on TV that have jowls down to the collar is quite extraordinary. Then there is Pickles...

 

[Sasaferrato]

The only thing that causes people to think that you're a bigoted misanthropic boor are the things you type onto the internet.

Fuck off.

 

[Sasaferrato]

bollocks.



I bet it's the things he says in the pub and at work, too.

You can also fuck off.

 

[kittyP]

I didn't say that it wasn't. I was replying to the specific point that you cannot make something out of nothing. There is much more to obesity than a simple matter of physics.

So, where, as a society, do we go from here? Ignoring the problem, and it is a problem, won't make it go away.

As I see it, a solution is going to cost a great deal of money. (Ignoring it will also cost a great deal of money).

Because it is multi-factorial, resolution has to start with the cause of overeating, a weight loss regime on its own will not work. It is rather like giving analgesia for a broken leg, but doing nothing to repair the leg. The cause has to be discovered and treated, then you have someone who is in a position to lose weight.

I don't think anyone here has suggested that it isn't a problem or ignoring it.