Is obesity a disability?

[kittyP]

Because I simply don't agree with ideas being pushed here that obesity is necessarily the result of psychological trauma or is something that can't be tackled by the individual.

I don't think anyone is saying that being over weight is always down to psychological "trauma" or that weight issues can't be tackled by the individual. Who else is going to tackle it?

What people are "pushing" is that it is often/mostly (imho) a many faceted and complicated issue for people and telling people that they are greedy or lazy or that they "just" need to eat less and move more is not only not helping anyone, it's shaming and can actually possibly make the situation worse.

What people have a problem with (I think) is, how people like you and a few others, are vastly over simplifying things in a counterproductive way.

Try and see the bigger picture.
And no that doesn't mean people relinquishing all responsibility.

 

[Poot]

I think obesity in terms of just BMI definition, you're party correct.
But in terms of the OP and people who are severely overweight, it's a bit different.

Absolutely. We're not talking about people who just really like cake a little bit too much, are we? That's pretty easy to address. We're talking about people who have serious problems with food. There is also a massive difference between someone who really likes a nice pint or 3 on a Friday and someone who hides vodka in their handbag at work so they can swig it in the loos. Surely you can see that, Johnny Vodka .

 

[DotCommunist]

It's not that he doesn't understand: this is fun to him. every word typed with a smirk.

anyone ho has clocked this and treats him with due contempt is on ignore. Me, thee and many others

 

[kittyP]

It is possible to get to severely overweight just via lifestyle choices, though. As I understand it, as you eat more, your body adjusts and wants more. Also, I've heard bigger people say being big becomes more of a barrier to exercising (awkwardness/embarrassment/just much more effort), so it is possible to go from slightly overweight to very overweight thanks to being trapped in a vicious circle.

See, minus the first sentence this is probably true.
But all the other stuff you've said makes me feel that you're still being judgemental.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

I don't think anyone is saying that being over weight is always down to psychological "trauma" or that weight issues can't be tackled by the individual. Who elsewhere is going to tackle it?

What people are "pushing" is that it is often/mostly (imho) a many faceted and complicated issue for people and telling people that they are greedy or lazy or that they "just" need to eat less and move more is not only not helping anyone, it's shaming and can actually possibly make the situation worse.

What people have a problem with (I think) is, how people like you and a few others, are vastly over simplifying things in a counterproductive way.

Try and see the bigger picture.
And no that doesn't mean people relinquishing all responsibility.

Over to you then. Genuine question: how would you like to see obesity tackled? Or do you think the answer is just to accept obesity rather than see it as an issue? Btw, I never shame anyone. I have big friends, I don't have a problem with bigger people aesthetically. However, that doesn't get away from the fact that obesity is one of the most costly problems facing the NHS and I'm sure it's not that great for the individual to be obese in the various issues it can cause.

 

[DotCommunist]

the most costly problem facing the NHS is savage wide ranging cuts and privitazation, matters upon which your voice is never heard. Moralising jamie oliver cock

 

[kittyP]

Over to you then. Genuine question: how would you like to see obesity tackled? Or do you think the answer is just to accept obesity rather than see it as an issue? Btw, I never shame anyone. I have big friends, I probably prefer slightly bigger girls to skinny ones (tmi ), I don't have a problem with bigger people aesthetically. However, that doesn't get away from the fact that obesity is the one of the most costly problems facing the NHS and I'm sure it's not that great for the individual to be obese in the various issues it can cause.

Firstly, just fucking don't with the "I prefer slightly bigger girls" shit.

Secondly. I do think obesity is an issue but not just because it is for the NHS but because it is for individuals.
I think it does need to be tackled/dealt with but in an holistic way. In a way that takes on board that it is more complex than "you eat too much and don't move enough".

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Firstly, just fucking don't with the "I prefer slightly bigger girls" shit.

Sorry. Edited.

 

[equationgirl]

Do I have a fuck you attitude? I don't think I've said anything in this thread that isn't common sense and I've already agreed that people are obese for various reasons. Some of my best friends are large. I do have one big friend who's happy to admit he's that size because he enjoys his food and eats too much (doesn't help that he has a sedentary job). In many cases, it is that simple - and I think it's right to ask when people make such a choice, and are so aware of that choice, how much employers and wider society should be forced to do to accommodate that choice. I probably sound like a shit politician.

My choices are be in chronic severe pain but be a lot thinner, or not be in pain and weigh more.

Which would you choose?

 

[kittyP]

My choices are be in chronic severe pain but be a lot thinner, or not be in pain and weigh more.

Which would you choose?

Exactly.
Right now my choices are attempt to look after my mental health but be over weight or address (take responsibility for) my weight but lose control of my mind.

And funnily enough I don't generally discuss this with people so a lot of people I know may have no idea about that.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

My choices are be in chronic severe pain but be a lot thinner, or not be in pain and weigh more.

Which would you choose?

I read your posts. I understand you (and many others) on this thread have medical conditions which lead to them being overweight, and that can't be helped. But as I said earlier, there are various reasons which lead to people being overweight, many of which can be tackled imo.

 

[story]

Isn't it pretty well established that the main factors in the rise of obesity are the increase in availability of junk food and more sedentary jobs? AFAIK obesity is rising in places (like the far east) where it's been very low before - thanks mainly due to an increase in Maccy D's, etc where people used to eat more healthily. I 'hear' the above posts but I really do think tackling obesity is, in *most* (i.e. not all) cases, more about 'lifestyle' than it is battling psychological demons.

Have a look at Robert Lustig's stuff about high fructose corn syrup.

There's no doubt that modern consumerist food practices have made things worse.

But it's not one thing.

For instance, I didn't know til last year that the highest incidence of metabolic syndrome and attendant obesity isn't in America, but in the Middle East. There are interesting possible reasons for this, but they are still speculative. Some of them are cultural, some of them are about capitalism, some of them are going to be personal.... It's not one thing, and even if we think we know what the contributing factors are, it's possible that we're wrong in some respects.

And anyway, looking at the larger picture doesn't necessarily tell us anything useful about the specific person.

What about the French Paradox. We can speculate about why French people can ingest equivalent amounts of fat and alcohol to Glaswegians without getting the same rates of heart disease, but we don't know for sure. So how can you even begin to tackle the outcome problems with any degree of certainty?

 

[equationgirl]

I read your posts. I understand you (and many others) on this thread have medical conditions which lead to them being overweight, and that can't be helped. But as I said earlier, there are various reasons which lead to people being overweight, many of which can be tackled imo.

You didn't answer the question.

And your posts throughout have been judgmental of those of us that do have issues with our weight.

So I ask you again - which would you choose?

 

[kittyP]

I read your posts. I understand you (and many others) on this thread have medical conditions which lead to them being overweight, and that can't be helped. But as I said earlier, there are various reasons which lead to people being overweight, many of which can be tackled imo.

But how do you know who is who?
If you start a blanket approach to weight because "some people" might just benefit from help with diet and exercise, you risk alienating a huge portion of society because of, well, tonnes of issues.

 

[kittyP]

Also, there is currently a huge drive within the NHS to give people advice and support with diet and exercise.
I have been offered it myself.

 

[mentalchik]

Over to you then. Genuine question: how would you like to see obesity tackled? Or do you think the answer is just to accept obesity rather than see it as an issue? Btw, I never shame anyone. I have big friends, I don't have a problem with bigger people aesthetically. However, that doesn't get away from the fact that obesity is one of the most costly problems facing the NHS and I'm sure it's not that great for the individual to be obese in the various issues it can cause.

Actually i think you'll find that our increasing lifespans are the 'biggest' drain on the NHS...........the vast majority of the spend on an individual is when you get old.........

 

[kittyP]

Actually i think you'll find that our increasing lifespans are the 'biggest' drain on the NHS...........the vast majority of the spend on an individual is when you get old.........

Yep.
Even only 15 years ago my 62 year old mother would not have survived the two bouts of breast cancer she's been through.
She's an incredibly thin, healthy eating, yoga doing kinda person.

 

[mentalchik]

Being harsh for one minute ( and i speak as a person classed as 'obese' by the BMI charts) one could argue that if a majority of the population become more and more obese it may well affect their lifespan therefore saving the NHS money in the long run...........

 

[BandWagon]

Being harsh for one minute ( and i speak as a person classed as 'obese' by the BMI charts) one could argue that if a majority of the population become more and more obese it may well affect their lifespan therefore saving the NHS money in the long run...........

In a similar vein, the government should encourage smoking, since it kills people before they get old enough to draw the OAP, and they would get some other diseases anyway which would cost the NHS lots of money, and think of all those doctors' appointments which would be saved, and then there's all that tax revenue...

Fag, anyone?

 

[kittyP]

Being harsh for one minute ( and i speak as a person classed as 'obese' by the BMI charts) one could argue that if a majority of the population become more and more obese it may well affect their lifespan therefore saving the NHS money in the long run...........

Oh quite probably.
Like I have seen people argue very well that smokers, at this point in time, probably save the NHS money over all, in terms of care needed over a life time. Because they generally die much earlier.

 

[story]

Being harsh for one minute ( and i speak as a person classed as 'obese' by the BMI charts) one could argue that if a majority of the population become more and more obese it may well affect their lifespan therefore saving the NHS money in the long run...........

But not necessarily....

It turns out that it's not being overweight per se that's the problem, but the metabolic dysfunction that so often accompanies it. There are plenty of lean people who fall prey to the same raft of problems that we see in obesity.

Although obesity is a very good marker for ill health, it's starting to look as if we've been making erroneous assumptions about it.

In my opinion, it won't be long before we're be talking about metabolic syndrome and metabolic dysfunction as a more accurate descriptor for those issues that we currently apportion to obesity.


As an aside, but it is related: For a long time, we thought it was fat in our diet that was bad for us and giving us furred up arteries and dicky tickers. That's now being questioned, and it looks as if, so far as it may be correct, it's far too simplistic

 

[story]

Johnny Vodka By the way, obesity that follows on from metabolic syndrome is a symptom, not a cause. Given that GPs tend not to diagnose this condition very often, if at all, how do you propose that we treat it? it's one of the reasons why some fat people find it almost impossible to lose weight. If you have no idea about an underlying condition, how can you do anything about it.

 

[kittyP]

But not necessarily....

It turns out that it's not being overweight per se that's the problem, but the metabolic dysfunction that so often accompanies it. There are plenty of lean people who fall prey to the same raft of problems that we see in obesity.

Although obesity is a very good marker for ill health, it's starting to look as if we've been making erroneous assumptions about it.

In my opinion, it won't be long before we're be talking about metabolic syndrome and metabolic dysfunction as a more accurate descriptor for those issues that we currently apportion to obesity.


As an aside, but it is related: For a long time, we thought it was fat in our diet that was bad for us and giving us furred up arteries and dicky tickers. That's now being questioned, and it looks as if, so far as it may be correct, it's far too simplistic

Watched a horizon programme with Michael Mosley (who I really like) that made a very good argument for eating butter over most of the supposedly healthy "spreads" on the market.

 

[mentalchik]

In a similar vein, the government should encourage smoking, since it kills people before they get old enough to draw the OAP, and they would get some other diseases anyway which would cost the NHS lots of money, and think of all those doctors' appointments which would be saved, and then there's all that tax revenue...

Fag, anyone?

already got one thanks...............and i wasn't being entirely serious

 

[BandWagon]

already got one thanks...............and i wasn't being entirely serious

Oh, I know, and nor was I. Btw, you should throw that fag away....

 

[mentalchik]

Oh, I know, and nor was I. Btw, you should throw that fag away....

quite probably i should yes.......................

 

[Johnny Vodka]

My choices are be in chronic severe pain but be a lot thinner, or not be in pain and weigh more.

Which would you choose?

I'd take the meds.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Actually i think you'll find that our increasing lifespans are the 'biggest' drain on the NHS...........the vast majority of the spend on an individual is when you get old.........

True dat.

 

[kittyP]

I'd take the meds.

Yes you would.
But when you are judging over weight people in general, you are not privvy to the information that equationgirl and I have given you so you are not fit to judge them.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

As an aside, but it is related: For a long time, we thought it was fat in our diet that was bad for us and giving us furred up arteries and dicky tickers. That's now being questioned, and it looks as if, so far as it may be correct, it's far too simplistic

The obesity epidemic is a recent thing, so what's changed in our society over the past few decades? I don't think anyone believes fat is bad in itself (heck, I generally eat the fat on meat, chicken skin, would eat butter over marg if it didn't take ages to soften), but fats have to be balanced with a suitably active lifestyle.