Is obesity a disability?

[killer b]

No, I dont suppose it is. Nor are vodkas posts on the thread though.

 

[killer b]

I mean that btw, his posts are very cruel. A number of people have taken time to explain in detail the barriers that prevent them from losing weight, and his response has basically been to say (I paraphrase) I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about those other feckless fat bastards who just need to pull themselves together with a cunt's smirk on his face.

Anyone with an ounce of compassion would be aware that every fat bastard experiences similar barriers to those who've shared their experiences on this thread - so continuing to say those things is a direct and hurtful attack on them too, and on those who're reading the thread who perhaps don't feel able to talk about their own battles.

I think it's pointless trying to demonstrate to Vodka what a cock he's being, as I'm sure he's totally aware and is doing it for his own amusement cf. feminism threads passim. But you can't really blame people for trying.

 

[Quartz]

The thing is though, unlike Sasaferrato and Utopia and Quartz , you do seem to be at least somewhat interested in the debate rather than just imposing your viewpoint.

Sorry, I'm not biting.

 

[Santino]

Sorry, I'm not biting.

Don't forget to slam the door on your way out.

 

[moon]

The thing about obesity is that it's inevitable the more successful a society becomes, we don't have to do anything to get our food, we don't have to walk anywhere, the supermarkets are full of cheap mass produced foods, the same types of cheap foods that are used to fatten livestock. They don't have any health warnings on them yet they do as much damage as smoking.
It takes a lot of will power to reject all the trappings of a successful society and say, nope I'm not going to use my car, I'm only going to eat fresh fruit and veg and I'm going to walk everywhere.

Edited to add that mass produced food is not the only issue, obesity is far more complex than just being overweight...

 

[moon]

And the medication thing is really important, I was on steroids for about 10 years due to allergies, I put on loads of weight and no matter what I did I couldn't shift it, I cycled every day and ate healthily. Yet I was still fat.
I stopped using the steroids about 3 years ago and my weight has dropped, I'm now a more natural size and shape for my genetics .

 

[Johnny Vodka]

SNIP

The thing is though, unlike Sasaferrato and Utopia and Quartz , you do seem to be at least somewhat interested in the debate rather than just imposing your viewpoint. Now, I can't work out if you really are interested in the debate, or if you've worked out that you can keep the thread going indefinitely by being just flexible enough to make everyone else feel that it's not pointless to engage with you.

I like this post. Seriously, you'd think it was only threads on here that I got involved in that started wobbling all over the place. IME, it's quite normal for forum threads to grow arms and legs. Rest assured, if I take part in a conversation, I'm interested in the topic. I don't think my opinion is more worthwhile than anyone else's (i've never told anyone on here to shut up), yet I also don't think my opinion is less worthwhile than anyone else's (unless someone happens to have a degree in the issues being discussed here). Many of us here seem to have been dealt a bad hand, and one person's philosophy on this is as worthwhile as the next IMO. I've alluded to self-loathing, lack of confidence, etc and I guess one of the challenges in this is trying to work out boundaries of personal responsibility and making best choices even when all choices seem shit (if that makes sense).

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Your argument, Johnny Vodka seems to be all based on the oh so wonderful neo liberal mantra of choice. We're all rational humans making rational choices and if you're fat you're irrational (how can you do something to damage your health so badly and be rational?) that's the basis of your argument. It's not completely incorrect, choice, personal action, responsibility and so on comes into it but when is it ever as simple as that? Your argument is exactly identical to that used by tobacco companies. It's one they used repeatedly to get themselves off the hook. 'People choose to smoke we just provide the option' except they weren't. They knew precisely what they were doing, that nicotine was highly addictive, that smoking caused cancer etc. They knew that smoking wasn't natural, that it provides no benefits whatsoever to health, mental and physical, so they had to carry out an enormous, incomprehensibly enormous when you actually look at it, to get people to take up smoking because half their customers are killed by their product. Smokers choose to try their first cigarettes of course but do they then consciously make a rational choice to need to carry cigarettes around all the time? To smoke one every 20 minutes or so? To get to a point where they feel they can't carry out simple tasks like answering the phone without lighting up? To make themselves think they actually enjoy it and on and on? Of course not and it is, in my case at least and I'm sure many others, very similar to how I approach food.

I've probably revealed more about myself up thread than necessary but nevermind I'm not that bothered as it's anonymous so I'll carry on. I have an addictive like approach to junk food. It's the main part of my diet. It's not all junk but it's bulky carbs a lot of the time etc. I feel like I 'need' it, I feel shame when I buy it, I have a certain kind of high when I eat it, but only for a few seconds (like a smoker) I feel shame after I eat it, I don't even notice the taste half the time or particularly enjoy it. I know it's killing me, making me miserable and affecting pretty much evry facet of my life and yet I still carry on, just like the smoker who knows all the health risks but carries on regardless because they irrationally rationalise it (I won't get cancer) and it's the same with junk food. Now, personally I quit smoking despite being hooked from my late teens and for 17 odd years after that. It took me several attempts to quit and even then I can't say for sure I'll be quit forever but so far so good. It's gonna be the same with junk food. I don't like eating it, I don't like being fat but I do eat it and I am fat. That's not rational. Yes of course only I can change it but it's a constant battle, it's one I've fought all my life and it's one I will fight all my life. Yes some people are fat because they like their food but there's probably equally as many, if not more, who are fat because of all kinds of complex reasons (I'm only really scratching the surface with my own experiences I've shared here).

I think, eventually, junk food companies will go the way of tobacco companies because they peddle the shit, it's enormously damaging to health, they market to children and hook them when young (especially true in my case) and they cost the state and the economy millions in terms of health care bills, lost working days etc. They lobby hard to maintain their market control and power, they have armies of lawyers and tons of money to do this and they do all their own 'research' (pay someone to skew results in their favour like tobacco companies do) to counter the science that states how damaging junk food is. If you were looking at this from mars you will conclude that junk food companies and tobacco companies are identical in their behaviour and the harm that they cause.

To finish off. No I don't think obesity is a disability but it certainly can lead to disability through a whole host of illnesses, joint pain (something I suffer from despite being only in my early 30s) etc. I do think there should be laws to prevent discrimination against obese people, in the same way there is against other forms of discrimination (not that they're perfect but they help at least) and yes I feel discriminated against fairly often when, for example, going for a job interview, could be me projecting but that's how I feel. I also think there should be more help with the psychological side of eating as there doesn't seem to be any, not on the NHS anyway. I know how to eat a healthy diet, I know what it consists of and what I need to do to lose weight but there's obviously more to it than that. Only I can change it of course but I just think you should know it's not as simple as you make out. If it was as simple as rationality nobody would smoke, be fat, drink to excess, inject heroin and so on.

 

[weltweit]

Well as the European Court of Justice says obesity, if it restricts the carrying out of your work duties, can be a disability means that Britain will have to follow suit and accept it.

What worries me more is all the rich food I will be forced to consume over the festive season, and how I will avoid putting weight on in the period ..

 

[ViolentPanda]

Do I have a fuck you attitude? I don't think I've said anything in this thread that isn't common sense and I've already agreed that people are obese for various reasons. Some of my best friends are large. I do have one big friend who's happy to admit he's that size because he enjoys his food and eats too much (doesn't help that he has a sedentary job). In many cases, it is that simple - and I think it's right to ask when people make such a choice, and are so aware of that choice, how much employers and wider society should be forced to do to accommodate that choice. I probably sound like a shit politician.

Ain't it amazing how you always handily have a "friend" or "colleague" on tap to use in your anecdotes?

A cynic might conclude that you're a lying shit.

 

[ViolentPanda]

If it is becoming such a big problem then I think personally that that shows that it is not that under peoples control.

I'd say that it's very much the case that it's not under peoples' control, and that a part of that is to do with the need - driven by poverty/poor wages and long work hours - to rely on processed foods more than at any other time in modern existence. Many processed foods have added fat, sugar and salt, all of which impact adversely on health, and all of which are "balanced" within the process food so that your palate isn't necessarily aware of what you're eating. And let's face it, food labeling can be a nightmare to understand, even if you bother to check it out. How many people know that corn syrup is a preservative and colouring, as well as a flavouring?

 

[ViolentPanda]

is this like the imaginary women who always tell you somehting that supports your agenda?

Well, quite!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Someone from the df preaching 'personal responsibility'. just lol.

I'm not going to condemn him for posting in the drugs forum/using chemicals, or say that he's ignoring his mantra of personal responsibility. What I will say, though, is that in maybe a decade or so, his physiology will show the impact of his lack of personal responsibility, and there'll be no-one to blame but himself, in a much more direct way than most obese people are supposedly responsible for their own problems.
Still, perhaps some of his imaginary friends will be there to help him when his drugs use catches up with him?

 

[Citizen66]

I'm not going to condemn him for posting in the drugs forum/using chemicals, or say that he's ignoring his mantra of personal responsibility. What I will say, though, is that in maybe a decade or so, his physiology will show the impact of his lack of personal responsibility, and there'll be no-one to blame but himself, in a much more direct way than most obese people are supposedly responsible for their own problems.
Still, perhaps some of his imaginary friends will be there to help him when his drugs use catches up with him?

And maybe they'll not be being judgmental about him whilst discussing him on message forums.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Isn't it pretty well established that the main factors in the rise of obesity are the increase in availability of junk food and more sedentary jobs?

Nope. Not unless you derive all your science news from the tabloids.
The rise of observed obesity in western populations has a massive number of cross-fertilising causes, some of which are:

• Exposure to materials that cause metabolic and/or endocrinal disruption.
• Penetration of most processed foods (that's processed foods, not "junk" food) with fats and sugars in greater volume than necessary.
• Genetic and metabolic disorders.
• Social forces promoted by "the system" (pervert scares/moral panics; limiting/monetising of outlets for physical exercise; stigmatisation of non-ideal body types).
• Medical interventions.
• Class.
• Poverty.

And maybe a thousand and one other factors.

AFAIK obesity is rising in places (like the far east) where it's been very low before - thanks mainly due to an increase in Maccy D's, etc where people used to eat more healthily. I 'hear' the above posts but I really do think tackling obesity is, in *most* (i.e. not all) cases, more about 'lifestyle' than it is battling psychological demons.

In the Middle East and the Indian subcontinent, the rise in obesity is linked (fairly sprucely) to insulin resistance - something that doesn't matter when the majority of the populations of those places are too poor to see non-dietary sugar (i.e. the sugar within a given raw ingredient) as anything more than a very occasional luxury, but where diets become more modern - i.e. basic processed foods and flavourings are used - the slight difference in intake of fats and sugars is enough to cause a rise in diabetes and obesity. It's not about McDs, it's about the fact that if you're insulin-resistant, then that single can of coke per week that you have as a treat will affect you in the way a can a day would affect someone who isn't insulin resistant but otherwise eats an equivalent diet.

 

[ViolentPanda]

When I got the train up from London the other weekend one Sunday teatime it was very crowded and a carriage short. Lots of Christmas shoppers, people at the end of a weekend in the smoke. People were stood in the isle, lots with no seat reservations including us.

Me and my son ended up standing next to four very large ladies who'd booked or at least reserved two tables between them. Very awkward. Cos the journey to Leeds is two and a half hours, my kid was knackered, I was knackered, we'd paid £150 for the journey and you expect a seat.

In the end (Stevenage) they volunteered to let us have two window seats. It was awkward, and tbf it was unfair on them as well as us. Trains should have bariatric seats. And planes. I guess you just can't fly if you're too large. No way these ladies would be able to sit within the arms of an aeroplane seat.

TBF, I can fit in a plane seat (even for a cheapo flight) with a little bit of wriggle room left over, and I'm a lardy bastard. It's the lack of leg space that fucks me up.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Amazing that everyone who has an issue with their weight is actually a complete fucking idiot and has never thought of diet and exercise. How useful it is to have somebody suggest that. Makes all the difference.

I must have been doing the wrong sort of exercise, and following the wrong sort of calorie controlled diet. I guess 1000 calories a day, fast-walking 6 miles a day and cycling 15 miles a day up and down hills, and doing circuit training 5 nights a week can't have been aerobic enough, and as for the PT etc in the military...
For all of that, I was barely able to keep my weight level, let alone to drop into the lower side of the BMI.

 

[ViolentPanda]

My choices are be in chronic severe pain but be a lot thinner, or not be in pain and weigh more.

Which would you choose?

If there were any justice, he'd choose to shut his ignorant pie-hole.

 

[ViolentPanda]

But not necessarily....

It turns out that it's not being overweight per se that's the problem, but the metabolic dysfunction that so often accompanies it. There are plenty of lean people who fall prey to the same raft of problems that we see in obesity.

Although obesity is a very good marker for ill health, it's starting to look as if we've been making erroneous assumptions about it.

In my opinion, it won't be long before we're be talking about metabolic syndrome and metabolic dysfunction as a more accurate descriptor for those issues that we currently apportion to obesity.

Absolutely. As we get further into the genetics of metabolic disorders (we're already clued-up to the fact that some are hereditary/heritable), I'm pretty sure (based on current advances in understanding) that we'll find more and more militating factors that have little to do with excessive intake of fats and sugars per se, but a lot to do with individual metabolic reaction to them, whether in excess or not.

 

[Jezebelle]

'he couldnt bend down to tie shoelaces' is what's in the report I've jsut read - so both his and the childs. If it is true he cant do so, he's screwed (imo) whatever the ruling. His state means he is unable to carry out a key part of his job. That's that - altho he could be moved to other duties.

I don't think he's at all screwed! The biggest hurdle is proving his obesity falls within the definition of the EU 'Equal Treatment Directive', which has the same provisions as the Equality Act 2010. Kaltoft denies not being able to bend down to tie shoelaces (and it does sound to me like an employer desperately trying to justify an unfair sacking) but even if true, they should have at least tried to overcome this problem with practicable adjustments at work. Telling him to lose weight, which is how they responded, is not going to help their case. Furthermore, the Equality Act says you can only exlude a disabled person from a job if they're not able to meet its 'essential requirements' (and no amount of reasonable adjustments can change that). It can be argued that the 'ability to tie shoe laces' is generally not an essential part of the job of a child-minder. The court will also take account of the fact that he worked as a child-minder for 15 years and was good at his job. At the end of the day, employers shouldn't be able to get away with sacking or not hiring people for being fat and I very much hope he wins his case.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I understand why he's doing it. I just don't think it's very kind.

Sometimes, it's necessary (unfortunately) to be cruel to be kind.

 

[ViolentPanda]

And the medication thing is really important, I was on steroids for about 10 years due to allergies, I put on loads of weight and no matter what I did I couldn't shift it, I cycled every day and ate healthily. Yet I was still fat.
I stopped using the steroids about 3 years ago and my weight has dropped, I'm now a more natural size and shape for my genetics .

For my ESA medical, I printed out the leaflets that come with each medication to A4, and read through them so I could highlight the side-effects that applied to me. None of the drugs are steroidal, but out of 13 different medications (analgesics, hypertension meds, a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory, diabetes meds, muscle relaxants and stomach protectors to protect against the effects of the NSAID) that I take daily, 10 have weight gain as an "uncommon" (i.e. affects less than one in a hundred) side-effect, so not so "uncommon" after all, especially if you're taking a combo (as I am) of drugs with that possible effect.

 

[Jezebelle]

Surely anything that can get in the way of a 'normal' life could be considered a disability in theory? So alcoholism could be considered a disability? Yes? No?

Addiction was specifically excluded as a disability from equality legislation. I'm not sure of the reasoning behind that but presumably has something to do with addiction not usually being recognised, on its own, as a health issue (though I believe it should be seen as such). Any health problems resulting from addiction to substances can however be potentially defined as disabilities. It's not necessary for a court to consider how these are caused.

 

[Jezebelle]

What I had to fill in my DWP form/book for claiming ESA, there was a whole section for those claiming on the grounds of alcohol and or substance addiction.
I have no idea how this actually works in real life as I don't know anyone who has attempted to claim on those grounds but it must be at least a bit considered a disability to be on the form I guess

A different legal test is required for deciding whether someone is recognised as disabled for the purposes of social security benefits - see Hill v. Clacton Family Trust.

 

[equationgirl]

As I've said, I couldn't care less if other people are overweight. TBH, once you get friendly (or work) with overweight people, you do often begin to suss why people are overweight. I'm slim and I get people observing/commenting on my eating habits, so you'll find most people are at summing other people up.

If you couldn't care less about people being overweight, why are you interested in why they are overweight?

 

[kenny g]

Before I came to this car crash of a thread I had this terrible sense of doom re what it would contain. Lazy fat arses who spend too much time on the internet whingeing, whingeing about how they are miraculously fat from sitting on the internet whingeing. There is no endocrinol secret to the fact that if you eat too many calories and do too little exercise you become fat.

I eat too much, I drink too much, and I drag my arse out of my warm house and go for a run or a swim or eat a lot less three times a week and guess what if I EAT TOO MUCH DON'T RUN DON'T SWIM I gain weight. Once I gain weight I start to eat less or do more. Hardly rocket science.

Fat fuckers should be charged more everywhere they move their fat arses. They are the outward sign of a grotesque world based on over consumption and physical inaction.

 

[dendrite]

They are the outward sign of a grotesque world based on over consumption and physical inaction.

If we're just the outward sign of that grotesque world, it's not our fault. Capital accumulation made me unnecessarily buy those reduced chicken mini fillets by deliberately undermining my sense of contentment.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

If you couldn't care less about people being overweight, why are you interested in why they are overweight?

I don't have the time to reply to VP's shittiness at the moment (or Doctor Carrot's more thoughtful post for that matter), but to answer you, I don't care from an aesthetic point of view if people are big. I am concerned about/interested in the health issues, how we manage the obesity epidemic, etc.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

I don't have the time to reply to VP's shittiness at the moment (or Doctor Carrot's more thoughtful post for that matter), but to answer you, I don't care from an aesthetic point of view if people are big. I am concerned about/interested in the health issues, how we manage the obesity epidemic, etc.

There is no obesity epidemic for you to be concerned about; so what's really going on?

Louis MacNeice

 

[Wilson]

Before I came to this car crash of a thread I had this terrible sense of doom re what it would contain. Lazy fat arses who spend too much time on the internet whingeing, whingeing about how they are miraculously fat from sitting on the internet whingeing. There is no endocrinol secret to the fact that if you eat too many calories and do too little exercise you become fat.

I eat too much, I drink too much, and I drag my arse out of my warm house and go for a run or a swim or eat a lot less three times a week and guess what if I EAT TOO MUCH DON'T RUN DON'T SWIM I gain weight. Once I gain weight I start to eat less or do more. Hardly rocket science.

Fat fuckers should be charged more everywhere they move their fat arses. They are the outward sign of a grotesque world based on over consumption and physical inaction.

Quality post!, I can really see how you've spent the time to read through so many of the posts on the thread and obviously considered the points made by many of the contributors before carefully crafting your sensitive and nuanced response to offer a well balanced and compassionate viewpoint.
Might I suggest that your extreme intelligence and great ability to bridge the gulfs of understanding are somewhat wasted by spending your precious time making posts here and that it would be more fruitful for you to apply yourself to a first hand investigation of the effects of amoebic dysentery.