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Is Elon Musk the greatest visionary or the greatest snake oil salesman of our age?

Red Cat said:
I agree, he's driven by a need for control.

I'm not defending him in any way, I only post as I keep getting notifications for this thread because I haven't turned them off, but I just don't think the way he's talked about here is very accurate a lot of the time. Every time I say actually I don't think that's quite right, I get a reply as if I'm a Musk fan girl. Its annoying.
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Well, time is limited and you’re spending yours correcting what you see as false impressions of Musk — the reactions to that are inevitably going to be as if you’re his defender. I’m also not sure that I agree with your objection to the statement that he doesn’t admit he is wrong. Sure, he will publicly state that in principle he wants to experiment, get things wrong and learn from them. But where in practice can we see him do that? What has he stated that he was wrong about or wrong to do?
 
kabbes said:
Well, time is limited and you’re spending yours correcting what you see as false impressions of Musk — the reactions to that are inevitably going to be as if you’re his defender. I’m also not sure that I agree with your objection to the statement that he doesn’t admit he is wrong. Sure, he will publicly state that in principle he wants to experiment, get things wrong and learn from them. But where in practice can we see him do that? What has he stated that he was wrong about or wrong to do?
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I think its perhaps a more abstract things will go wrong, you try something else than an admission that he has actually stated what he has been wrong about. I'm not aware of him doing that.

I just don't see him as someone as a narcissist in the same mould as say Trump. My actual job is to understand people, their personality, what drives them. So you know , it's not that strange that I might take an interest, but it's mainly a distraction.
 
Red Cat said:
I think its perhaps a more abstract things will go wrong, you try something else than an admission that he has actually stated what he has been wrong about. I'm not aware of him doing that.

I just don't see him as someone as a narcissist in the same mould as say Trump. My actual job is to understand people, their personality, what drives them. So you know , it's not that strange that I might take an interest, but it's mainly a distraction.
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I don’t think anybody here has said that he’s a narcissist like Trump?

As a wider point, I’d suggest that sometimes, it’s important to reflect on what you’re choosing to take a stance against, and what you’re not. There are many (countless!) times that I will read a thread and disagree with a statement that somebody has made, but will not point out that I disagree. That is because to object to a statement without also fully staking my ground on the context that the statement relates to is a piece of discursive positioning that locates me at a particular political point, whether I like it or not. In this thread, you are keen to point out the ways in which Musk is not problematic, but you have not opined on the ways in which he is problematic. That acts to position you within the activity of this dialogue. In your job to understand people, I can’t believe that you do that from afar, without the chance for a detailed formulation in person. So why leap in here? As a piece of self-reflection, in your professional opinion, is that revealing something?
 
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He can't go admitting he was wrong too much can he, and in particular he can't go admitting he can't do most of the things he said he was going to do, because then his share prices will drop through the floor. This probably works fine for him as I guess he's not inclined to admit he's not a genius anyway, possibly especially to himself, but even if he was minded to he couldn't really.
 
kabbes said:
I don’t think anybody here has said that he’s a narcissist like Trump?
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Well that is my impression, I'm not going back through the thread, but tech bro, narcissist. And there may be features of that, but it seems a bit superficial, I think he's quite complex. But that's not the same as saying genius or good guy.

I think the people who post on this thread are really concerned about the political consequences of what he's doing. I'm not, my life is very centred on my family right now and I don't have the capacity to care much beyond more local and very pressing concerns. I do find it interesting thinking about how he became so powerful, the dynamics of that, which is why I think its important to get his character right, but beyond that I don't care, so we're speaking at cross purposes. I'm fairly sure I've turned off notifications before, I'll do that again so I'm not tempted to post.
 
kabbes said:
.. In your job to understand people, I can’t believe that you do that from afar, without the chance for a detailed formulation in person. So why leap in here? As a piece of self-reflection, in your professional opinion, is that revealing something?
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Thats a bit like saying the only people who should be opining about something online are those ones whose training & skills are in no way relevant to the topic at hand, not sure that's a brilliant idea.
 
bimble said:
Thats a bit like saying the only people who should be opining about something online are those ones whose training & skills are in no way relevant to the topic at hand, not sure that's a brilliant idea.
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No, it’s a bit like saying that claiming knowledge from a position of authority requires that you consider how that authority is usually applied.
 
kabbes said:
No, it’s a bit like saying that claiming knowledge from a position of authority requires that you consider how that authority is usually applied.
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That's not actually what I said, I said that's why I was interested, not that my view should have any authority.
 
Red Cat said:
Well that is my impression, I'm not going back through the thread, but tech bro, narcissist. And there may be features of that, but it seems a bit superficial, I think he's quite complex.
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I think he's also quite complex, and he probably isn't a terrible person face to face. He might be a great father, for example. Or a great friend.

But he's also spread vacinne misinformation, spread trans hate, given Andrew Tate, an alleged violent rapist and pimp, £20k for some spending money, has constantly spread alt right memes to his million of (probably highly susceptable) followers, has sacked people for no reason, and is one of the biggest capitalists in the world, and your worried about someone calling him an andriod?

Of course he's complex. We know that. But we also look at his actions.
 
BigMoaner said:
I think he's also quite complex, and he probably isn't a terrible person face to face. He might be a great father, for example. Or a great friend.

But he's also spread vacinne misinformation, spread trans hate, given Andrew Tate, an alleged violent rapist and pimp, £20k for some spending money, has constantly spread alt right memes to his million of (probably highly susceptable) followers, has sacked people for no reason, and is one of the biggest capitalists in the world, and your worried about someone calling him an andriod?

Of course he's complex. We know that. But we also look at his actions.
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You misunderstand. I care about the perpetuation of harmful stereotypes of autistic people not being fully human, not because I care about Musk, but because I care about prejudice and discrimination against other autistic people, most of whom are a good deal less powerful than Musk.

As for the rest, I've said about that in another post.

I'm not an idiot btw.
 
There's a misconception I think, that people shouldn't be called nasty names or shamed, or that people shouldn't act impulsively to bad behavior, "Look at this dick,"etc. This cuts out so much of the human. No, you most go and explore the socio-economic-biological reason for such behaviour.

Both is what is needed, and both will always exist. Some drink driver drives into me and knocks down my cat, allow me for one moment the chance to call him a fucking dick. Then at the same time we can be explorign how and why he got there.
 
Red Cat said:
You misunderstand. I care about the perpetuation of harmful stereotypes of autistic people not being fully human, not because I care about Musk, but because I care about prejudice and discrimination against other autistic people, most of whom are a good deal less powerful than Musk.

As for the rest, I've said about that in another post.

I'm not an idiot btw.
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Like my son, for example? It's you who drew the autistic guidelines in this, not me. I called him an andriod because he kinda reminds me of an empty sociopath sometimes, not because he's autistic.
 
kabbes said:
you are keen to point out the ways in which Musk is not problematic, but you have not opined on the ways in which he is problematic.
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I actually haven't said he isn't problematic as I haven't commented on his actions.

re. the latter point, why would I just repeat stuff that's already been said by others?
 
Red Cat said:
I agree, he's driven by a need for control.

I'm not defending him in any way, I only post as I keep getting notifications for this thread because I haven't turned them off, but I just don't think the way he's talked about here is very accurate a lot of the time. Every time I say actually I don't think that's quite right, I get a reply as if I'm a Musk fan girl. Its annoying.
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If it walks like a Musk fan girl, acts like Musk fan girl, and talks like a Musk fan girl...
 
kabbes said:
He’s indulging himself “experimenting” in things that are elementary knowledge to people with actual expertise in that area. He needs to find a way to incorporate that expertise rather than believing he needs to always make the mistakes himself. Particularly when he’s playing with people’s lives
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This was the most interesting bit from that ex-twitter person the other day, how he’s seemingly unable or unwilling to make use of the expertise around him.

Eta this bit
IMG_5327.jpeg

I like how she doesn’t try to explain why, just says it was annoying and baffling.
 
BigMoaner said:
I think he's also quite complex, and he probably isn't a terrible person face to face. He might be a great father, for example. Or a great friend.

But he's also spread vacinne misinformation, spread trans hate, given Andrew Tate, an alleged violent rapist and pimp, £20k for some spending money, has constantly spread alt right memes to his million of (probably highly susceptable) followers, has sacked people for no reason, and is one of the biggest capitalists in the world, and your worried about someone calling him an andriod?

Of course he's complex. We know that. But we also look at his actions.
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He’s obsessed with his ex and his kids are reluctant to deal with him, in one case seeking emancipation

He’s not complex he’s a rich man child struggling to stay relevant
 
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