Immigration to the UK - do you have concerns?

[lengualo]

To paraphrase:

The greatest trick capitalism ever played was convincing people class doesn't exist/matter.

(Maybe not the greatest but...)

People your age may think class isn't a big thing but yes, yes it is.

Whilst I don't dispute this, a lot of left wing interests, particularly surrounding topics such as race, identity, misogyny, LGBTQ+, climate, education and university access, and a lot of employment stuff is less connected to class these days. Also, there are a lot of people from working class backgrounds who have what are middle class lifestyles. So I think the topic of class has became more blurred.

Not a trick question. And not having a go at you but what are examples of the talking points?

Getting it back to the thread In London I notice a generational change over immigration.

The older white Londoner I work with is of the old school immigration is the problem with this country. Old school east ender. Like Spymaster Dave. He tells me his daughter tells him the world's moved on.

Those his sons/ daughter age are much more liberal minded and progressive.

I also sometimes work for a company in London where most people are less than half my age. Surprised but Corbyn was popular. On things like Brexit ( against) tolerance of others and immigration they are progressive. For them housing and the precarious nature of work is a problem. Lot of people on short term contracts that get renewed or not .Tories just don't relate to them in any way.

I actually think Starmer government are making a mistake in not putting their concerns on top of a list. And taking a more progressive view of immigration.

So on concerns about immigration. What I see in London is generational shift to it not being a concern as much as it was in London.

Also I've been on a lot of the Palestinian demos. This also surprised me a new younger generation who supports Palestinian rights.

Can't say whether this applies to outside London.

But imo over my time in London what was considered loony left thinking on race , immigration and progressive ideas are now more mainstream. Even if people don't go into discussions of class.

I think you're hitting on it in your post tbh. Things like racism, equality and resetting the imbalances both here and internationally, LGBTQ+ rights, trans rights especially, womens rights, gender identity politics, heteropessimism, climate and green energy and the impending climate crisis and concerns about population displacement, more open immigration, palestine, university access and quality of education, employment security, being able to purchase your own home, freedom to travel, work, and study outside of the UK.

From my experiences those kinds of topics tend to be the most dominant and talked about. Obviously the left wing, socialist economics are still at the core but there is a different emphasis and priority.

 

[Gramsci]

I don’t know if you’re trying to wind me up here but surgeons aren’t tired because of second jobs. Try and work an NHS surgical rota and get back to me.

I’m honestly flabbergasted about private companies not allowing people to work a second job. Like kabbes That’s news to me.

I think if the NHS demanded that doctors would just tell them to fuck off.

I’ve given blood, sweat and tears to the NHS. I’ve paid my dues. I’ll continue to work in the nhs because, partly, I believe in it and I want to treat children whose parents couldn’t afford private healthcare. I could earn double my wage by working completely privately. And partly because some really good medicine goes on in the NHS and private providers are variable. But I’ll also develop a private practice in London.

It gets worse. Private companies have got into restrictive covenants. To stop employees going off to work for competitor for example.

Restrictive Covenants in Employment Contracts | FAQs for Employees

Are you an employee looking for advice on your restrictive covenant? Read out handy FAQs which include advice on restrictive covenants for employees.

www.doyleclayton.co.uk

This is all pretty standard stuff in the world of capitalism.

 

[Edie]

Just like to point out that one of the more unpleasant aspects of the present immigration system is that hospitals are meant to deny treatment to people if they cannot prove government defined entitlement.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/ournhs/how-nhs-staff-are-fighting-back-against-the-hostile-environment/

Making health workers become border police.

All part of the hostile environment

I pointed that out in one of my posts way back. That receptionists are meant to ask every patient how long they have lived in the UK, and that I ask my receptionists not to do that because I disagree with it.

 

[cesare]

Cataract operations are still being paid for by the NHS, they're just not being done by the NHS. I know someone whose had it done recently, optician referred him to Specmedia (which is the company that does it round here) and he was seen within about a week, operation less than a fortnight after that. Still free at point of delivery he didn't pay nowt for it since the bill went to the NHS.
The doctor in the posted article isn't really complaining that cataract operations are being done outside the NHS, he's complaining that paying for all these two week cataract operations rather than making people wait 6 months for them is draining the budget that would be otherwise be used for other eye related procedures. The thing I take away from that is firstly the budget isn't enough (deffo the crux of the problem there) and secondly the doctor reckons some procedures are more important than others and he should decide which ones they are. Which makes sense in a way but of course he's not the one forced to see the world as a grey blur whilst waiting to make his way to the top of the waiting list. There are clearly dangers in letting anyone even doctors decide who should wait and who shouldn't.
As for going private in the true sense and paying for something we are definitely getting into very morally grey areas here, you're not really showing solidarity with others on the same waiting list as you since they don't know you are, you don't know who they are and it's not really helping them to get treatment in any meaningful sense. I suspect for most people there is a sliding scale with principles and worrying about the cost down one axis and the inconvenience of waiting and the amount of pain they're in down the other. I've never been in this position but I can well imagine that for some people eventually the second will overtake the first and they will swallow any principles and fork out. I wouldn't condemn anyone for making that decision and should push ever come to shove I'd probably do the same.

There's also the issue that private suppliers of cataract operations provide a greater range of lenses than the NHS (or what the NHS used to supply). I didn't realise that the NHS don't do cataract ops anymore - my most recent NHS experience was taking my mum for one of hers to be done which was frankly traumatic due to massive waiting time because so many ops being done on a production line type basis (exacerbated by her terror having it done whilst in the early-ish throws of dementia and Parkinson's).

 

[Gramsci]

Whilst I don't dispute this, a lot of left wing interests, particularly surrounding topics such as race, identity, misogyny, LGBTQ+, climate, education and university access, and a lot of employment stuff is less connected to class these days. Also, there are a lot of people from working class backgrounds who have what are middle class lifestyles. So I think the topic of class has became more blurred.




I think you're hitting on it in your post tbh. Things like racism, equality and resetting the imbalances both here and internationally, LGBTQ+ rights, trans rights especially, womens rights, gender identity politics, heteropessimism, climate and green energy and the impending climate crisis and concerns about population displacement, more open immigration, palestine, university access and quality of education, employment security, being able to purchase your own home, freedom to travel, work, and study outside of the UK.

From my experiences those kinds of topics tend to be the most dominant and talked about. Obviously the left wing, socialist economics are still at the core but there is a different emphasis and priority.

Though my ( limited take) on say Marxism is that it's not in opposition to these ideas

Marx looked at the massive technology change in his time and saw that freeing people was no longer utopian.

Automation etc could mean a society freed from work.

Freedom was then possible. People could develop themselves free from having to worry about getting the daily necessities of life.

It's a different concept of freedom to the neo Liberal one of competition

 

[lazythursday]

Whilst I don't dispute this, a lot of left wing interests, particularly surrounding topics such as race, identity, misogyny, LGBTQ+, climate, education and university access, and a lot of employment stuff is less connected to class these days. Also, there are a lot of people from working class backgrounds who have what are middle class lifestyles. So I think the topic of class has became more blurred.




I think you're hitting on it in your post tbh. Things like racism, equality and resetting the imbalances both here and internationally, LGBTQ+ rights, trans rights especially, womens rights, gender identity politics, heteropessimism, climate and green energy and the impending climate crisis and concerns about population displacement, more open immigration, palestine, university access and quality of education, employment security, being able to purchase your own home, freedom to travel, work, and study outside of the UK.

From my experiences those kinds of topics tend to be the most dominant and talked about. Obviously the left wing, socialist economics are still at the core but there is a different emphasis and priority.

but class is still at the heart of all of these topics. It intersects, to use the jargon. And magnifies.

I guess I thought a lot like you when I was younger. But now I see the life trajectories of those I grew up with, those I went to university with, etc, and see just what a lie social mobility and meritocracy is for most people. And in particular, the role of family wealth and inheritance.

 

[Edie]

There's also the issue that private suppliers of cataract operation provide a greater supply of lenses than the NHS (or what the NHS used to supply). I didn't realise that the NHS don't do cataract ops anymore - my last experience was taking my mum for one of hers to be done which was frankly traumatic due to massive waiting time because so many ops being done on a production line type basis (exacerbated by her terror having it done whilst in the early-ish throws of dementia and Parkinson's).

A lot of low hanging fruit surgery (and medicine) is delivered on behalf of the NHS by private companies now. The NHS is really semi privatised already.

The complex, co-morbid, costly care of the elderly and mentally unwell, will be the last to be privatised. So they’ve introduced a second tier “medical model” via PAs.

Eta: always ask for a doctor. Never allow a PA consult unless you are very sure it’s a minor illness.

 

[cesare]

A lot of low hanging fruit surgery (and medicine) is delivered on behalf of the NHS by private companies now. The NHS is really semi privatised already.

The complex, co-morbid, costly care of the elderly and mentally unwell, will be the last to be privatised. So they’ve introduced a second tier “medical model” via PAs.

Eta: always ask for a doctor. Never allow a PA consult unless you are very sure it’s a minor illness.

What does PA stand for in the NHS?

 

[Edie]

What does PA stand for in the NHS?

Physician Associate.

Advanced Nurse Practitioners, Advanced paramedics etc all fine. Regulated. Experienced. Absolutely in their lane.

PAs- dangerous quack experiment masquerading as doctors. I’m sure they’re mostly well intentioned lovely people (the ones I’ve worked with are). But you cannot learn medicine in two years and work safely, especially with undifferentiated patients in primary care.

 

[cesare]

Physician Associate.

Advanced Nurse Practitioners, Advanced paramedics etc all fine. Regulated. Experienced. Absolutely in their lane.

PAs- dangerous quack experiment masquerading as doctors. I’m sure they’re mostly well intentioned lovely people (the ones I’ve worked with are). But you cannot learn medicine in two years and work safely, especially with undifferentiated patients in primary care.

Thank you, that's really helpful.info and insight.

 

[Sue]

Whilst I don't dispute this, a lot of left wing interests, particularly surrounding topics such as race, identity, misogyny, LGBTQ+, climate, education and university access, and a lot of employment stuff is less connected to class these days.

Thinking about education and employment.

The education you receive (type and quality), access to further/higher education, accessing internships that help you get a job, getting hired and 'fitting in' at a job, having contacts or connections through family or friends or school that help you get a job in the first place. All these things are very much connected to class.

I'm not that much older than you and I work with a lot of people in their 20s. They accept that they need to do internships (often unpaid) and be in huge amounts of debt from university.

It literally blows their minds when i tell them not only did I not have any fees or huge loans to pay off, I actually got a grant for going. And that I've never, ever worked for free.

I also still see people get jobs through family connections or because someone high up went to the same school as them. And when I say 'same school', that's never ever been 'same comprehensive'.

So tell me again how university access and a lot of employment stuff are less connected to class these days. Things may be presented slightly differently now, but they still absolutely are connected.

 

[JoeyBoy]

This thread hasn't so much wandered off topic now as fled the country on a false passport

 

[cesare]

The Button was on the last year of full grant - accommodation, tuition fees, also cover for Christmas and Easter holidays and you could sign on during the summer. Rent on shared student.house was £30.p/w which at the time seemed very expensive.

 

[lengualo]

but class is still at the heart of all of these topics. It intersects, to use the jargon. And magnifies.

I guess I thought a lot like you when I was younger. But now I see the life trajectories of those I grew up with, those I went to university with, etc, and see just what a lie social mobility and meritocracy is for most people. And in particular, the role of family wealth and inheritance.

I don't know that its at the heart of all of these topics, unless you believe the middle classes are inherently more racist, prejudice about LGBTQ+ rights, hate trans people, etc. And given how I've found a fair chunk of lot of old school socialists in the red wall and Brexit, I'd dispute it strongly.

Thinking about education and employment.

The education you receive (type and quality), access to further/higher education, accessing internships that help you get a job, getting hired and 'fitting in' at a job, having contacts or connections through family or friends or school that help you get a job in the first place. All these things are very much connected to class.

I'm not that much older than you and I work with a lot of people in their 20s. They accept that they need to do internships (often unpaid) and be in huge amounts of debt from university.

It literally blows their minds when i tell them not only did I not have any fees or huge loans to pay off, I actually got a grant for going. And that I've never, ever worked for free.

I also still see people get jobs through family connections or because someone high up went to the same school as them. And when I say 'same school', that's never ever been 'same comprehensive'.

So tell me again how university access and a lot of employment stuff are less connected to class these days. Things may be presented slightly differently now, but they still absolutely are connected.

I don't think we probably disagree that much, because I wasn't saying it was non existent, I said class isn't such a huge point in peoples psyche and isn't the higher point of priority. I would also argue that the working and a large chunk of the middle class have intersected, they've been squeezed. If I think about the very middle class areas near me they often share similar problems re education as the working class areas.

Class is a really big deal here and seems to get dragged into everything, even going as far as to try to identify the self employed and small business owners as not working class regardless of their socio-economic position.


As an aside, I think the class system needs to fuck right off, its such a toxic part of our culture.

 

[lengualo]

This thread hasn't so much wandered off topic now as fled the country on a false passport

Lol, the discussion was on the nationalism of weather reports a few pages back so I dont know why you're picking this up now

 

[Edie]

This thread hasn't so much wandered off topic now as fled the country on a false passport

They’re the best ones

 

[cupid_stunt]

There's also the issue that private suppliers of cataract operations provide a greater range of lenses than the NHS (or what the NHS used to supply). I didn't realise that the NHS don't do cataract ops anymore - my most recent NHS experience was taking my mum for one of hers to be done which was frankly traumatic due to massive waiting time because so many ops being done on a production line type basis (exacerbated by her terror having it done whilst in the early-ish throws of dementia and Parkinson's).

My local trust still do them, at eye clinics in Brighton, Chichester, and Shoreham.

Note to MickiQ as well.

 

[lengualo]

My local trust still do them, at eye clinics in Brighton, Chichester, and Shoreham.

So does ours, my mum is having cataract treatments atm.

 

[PTK]

Whilst I don't dispute this, a lot of left wing interests, particularly surrounding topics such as race, identity, misogyny, LGBTQ+, climate, education and university access, and a lot of employment stuff is less connected to class these days. Also, there are a lot of people from working class backgrounds who have what are middle class lifestyles. So I think the topic of class has became more blurred.




I think you're hitting on it in your post tbh. Things like racism, equality and resetting the imbalances both here and internationally, LGBTQ+ rights, trans rights especially, womens rights, gender identity politics, heteropessimism, climate and green energy and the impending climate crisis and concerns about population displacement, more open immigration, palestine, university access and quality of education, employment security, being able to purchase your own home, freedom to travel, work, and study outside of the UK.

From my experiences those kinds of topics tend to be the most dominant and talked about. Obviously the left wing, socialist economics are still at the core but there is a different emphasis and priority.

"heteropessimism" is all the talk down the local pub.
What is it?

 

[lazythursday]

I don't know that its at the heart of all of these topics, unless you believe the middle classes are inherently more racist, prejudice about LGBTQ+ rights, hate trans people, etc. And given how I've found a fair chunk of lot of old school socialists in the red wall and Brexit, I'd dispute it strongly.

Don't you think prejudice hits harder if you're poorer? That its going to be easier to be a young trans person if you have means to live independently? And as for old school socialists I know the type you mean, but what I remember as a young gay man in the 80s was that virtually the only people on my side in the whole country waa the so-called 'loony left'.

 

[lengualo]

"heteropessimism" is all the talk down the local pub.
What is it?

Who talks politics down the pub? Who even goes to the pub these days.

Heteropessimism is basically an ingrained dislike or frustration for the opposite gender that is often ingrained in heterosexual relationships. It's often born out of gender role expectations, misogyny, toxic masulinity, and a lack of communication skills between men and women.

If I were to boilerplate it down, I guess its like "machismo culture" and everything that spins out from it, and womens resentments that result from it along with a weird inability for people to enjoy or bond over things that exist on the opposite end of the gender divide.

 

[PTK]

All of these issues are shaped by capitalism, and the essence of capitalism is that there are two main classes.

 

[PTK]

Who talks politics down the pub? Who even goes to the pub these days.

Heteropessimism is basically an ingrained dislike or frustration for the opposite gender that is often ingrained in heterosexual relationships. It's often born out of gender role expectations, misogyny, toxic masulinity, and a lack of communication skills between men and women.

Well, this term is used by a very tiny number of people

 

[Rimbaud]

Whilst I don't dispute this, a lot of left wing interests, particularly surrounding topics such as race, identity, misogyny, LGBTQ+, climate, education and university access, and a lot of employment stuff is less connected to class these days.

And this is exactly what is wrong with contemporary left wing politics.

The thing is, stuff around race, gender and climate is more prevalent these days because it is less threatening to capital and to the propertied classes so it is more tolerated and even encouraged by some amongst the upper classes.

That class is less mentioned is because it is more threatening to the establishment and therefore more eagerly shut down. In some ways it is the elephant in the room which people don't dare mention, and it's absence from the conversation is merely testament to its explosive relevance.

 

[lengualo]

Don't you think prejudice hits harder if you're poorer? That its going to be easier to be a young trans person if you have means to live independently?

Hmm, I think thats going to start getting very specific to individuals. My SO who is an ethnic minority person from a middle class background certainly didn't feel her privilege when she has been racially insulted. She also didn't feel particularly better about shit when dealing with sexual discrimination, being offered grades for sex by a filthy professor, or the time she was groped (both of the latter has a race and misoginy angle, because racists sure do love to try and control women). I don't think prejudice hits harder when you're poor, I think that actually undermines prejudice. I'm not accusing you of intentionally doing so, but I think it does.

Being blunt about it, after some fucker sees fit to stick their hand up your skirt and then get pissy that the latina isn't submitting like the good "maid" she should be, she didn't go home and think well daddy has 3 properties so its not that bad.

I know what you're talking about, but I think its one of those things thats more perception than reality.

And as for old school socialists I know the type you mean, but what I remember as a young gay man in the 80s was that virtually the only people on my side in the whole country waa the so-called 'loony left'.

Yeah, maybe in the 80's but I'm not so sure thats the case today.

 

[lengualo]

Well, this term is used by a very tiny number of people

The terminology perhaps, the behaviour not so much.

 

[Gramsci]

I pointed that out in one of my posts way back. That receptionists are meant to ask every patient how long they have lived in the UK, and that I ask my receptionists not to do that because I disagree with it.

Fair enough.

That post wasn't directed at you. I skipped a lot of the posts about NHS Vs private health as it was off topic. So missed that.

Imo whether one supports immigration controls or not the hostile environment was particularly nasty idea of Theresa May and should be dropped.

Making employers , landlords and health workers border guards should be ended

 

[lazythursday]

And this is exactly what is wrong with contemporary left wing politics.

The thing is, stuff around race, gender and climate is more prevalent these days because it is less threatening to capital and to the propertied classes so it is more tolerated and even encouraged by some amongst the upper classes.

That class is less mentioned is because it is more threatening to the establishment and therefore more eagerly shut down. In some ways it is the elephant in the room which people don't dare mention, and it's absence from the conversation is merely testament to its explosive relevance.

It's also the case that these topics have a class dimension that gets brushed aside. There's little point in a gay rights agenda that just benefits the better off. The biggest gay rights issue right now is probably lack of affordable housing for the young, not niche issues like conversion therapy.

 

[Winot]

I’m contractually obliged not to work for any employer but my own. That’s pretty standard in the private sector.

Same

 

[Winot]

Yes, I would not judge anyone going private out of desperation when the NHS has let them down, an increasingly common scenario.

As mentioned above, that is very different from supporting the system that produces that scenario, though, or for that matter supporting the rights of doctors to perpetuate it by doing private work on top of their already generous NHS pay.

In fact I can imagine a scenario in which one could both feel forced to go private to see a doctor and utterly despise that doctor for doing said work privately. We at the bottom are powerless. Others, such as consultant doctors, are less powerless.

I'm interested - would you take the same view of private education?

(Personally I have paid for private healthcare but would never send my kids to private school)