Immigration to the UK - do you have concerns?

[lengualo]

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www.urban75.net

if you search the boards you'll see we've touched on the subject of margaret thatcher's years in power once or twice

I was just talking personally about how we perceive each other sometimes. Or how I have this mental mismatch, so when people talk about Thatcher it can feel irrelevant and I was trying to express that.

Like, I think there is a generational divide that can place certain eras in a weird place. I'm in my early 40's so have no living memory of Thatcher, my earliest memories of our political establishment are Major, and for any meaningful political awareness a little bit of Major, but mostly Blair and onwards. I think the politics of the left have an ideological divide between then and here which can put talking points into weird places.

When I think of Thatcher the first things that come to mind are things like the oppression of gay people. I also remember people who were real hard socialists who were well on the right of thinking on civil rights topics. The red wall falling wasn't exactly a surprise.

When I think of the miners strikes, I see violence but also see the death of an industry that needed to be scaled back due to climate change. And I can find that very difficult to understand beyond Thatchers approach was violent. I feel like I might be saying something really controversial there, but that is how the political landscape and priorities of the 90's and beyond have framed it in my head.

I guess what I mean is, the left then and the left now can feel like different things and it can lead to problems of understanding. Like when my Tory mother goes on about rolling blackouts and its just going past me. Not only do I politically disagree with her, but conversation feels irrelevant. Some of the things that do feel relevant from that time are the things that are still tangibly relevant today.

I've seen quite a few times people trying to identify what people are, and I think because of those divides it can lead to a lot of misunderstanding about what type of left someone is.

I think politics these days has 3 branches, economic, social and progressive and that these are distinct. When I'm on younger left wing communities the discussion points are very different as is the worldview they are coming from. I see an abscene of those talking points here, and vice versa. So I think we can come from very different places with different priorities.

 

[The39thStep]

It's by not giving this any consideration that the left has got itself in the shit it's in, wrt to immigration, and the country has moved further right than ever before.

I used "racists" and "paedophiles" as an extreme rhetorical device to illustrate that some people are, and should remain, unwelcome. What happens? "People think you mean all Muslims"; "you're pandering to a racist agenda'; and Ska's usual insinuations that I'm far-right and racist.

This is why the left is so out of touch and this country has overwhelmingly rejected their politics at the ballot box, time after time. They want you lot as far away from government as possible, and they're succeeding.

Anyway, I'm off on holiday and I've no intention of giving this any headspace whilst I'm laying by a pool in the Aegean, sipping an Old Fashioned; so this thread's going on ignore for a couple of weeks.

Have a good holiday but try not to use extreme rhetorical devices if left unsupervised.

 

[Gramsci]

The bits I've put in bold in this extract of your post are really draconian and unreasonable imo. Being "suspected" of something amounts to nothing, really. Loads of people are "suspected" of things without any charges ever being brought, let alone being convicted. And "expressions of similar tendencies" is also meaninglessness, unless someone is found guilty of actually planning those things.

I once "expressed" the desire to kill my ex-husband, but I had no intention of doing it and opted for the more civilised remedy of divorce.

I had what's called an enhanced DBS as I was doing volunteering around young children.

Enhanced DBS like this includes information that is on police files but includes more than just being convicted of something.

I passed the enhanced DBS.

I gathered from this process that if I'd come under the police radar as someone of concern in their files but not convicted I would have failed to pass.i don't think people are aware that this can happen in this country now

 

[Rimbaud]

I think its also worth noting that unless you're 50+ then people will have no lived experience of that era so are working mostly off of what people have told them or stuff they've read. I include myself in that and its why I rarely touch that topic because I'd probably be ignorant as hell.

In conservative areas Thatcher is held up as a saviour who fixed Labours mess. I grew up in such and area and it can get very difficult to unpack what I was told growing up with how things were.

Would be very different if you grew up in the former industrial heartlands of Scotland, South Wales or Northern England. I was born near Newcastle at the tail end of the Thatcher era but most of the older generation curse her name around here. For me I mostly think of the miners strike and subsequent mass unemployment and urban decline, this is how most people here see that era. I also have some Northern Irish family history so I also heard stories growing up about how she had Pat Finucane murdered etc, collusion with paramilitary death squads, letting the Hunger Strikers die, and the ridiculous censorship policy of dubbing Gerry Adams into BBC standard English.

What is odd though is that Edie is apparently from Leeds where I believe the mainstream view is pretty similar to here in Newcastle. From the stuff she is posting I'd have assumed she was from the Home Counties or at least some rural area down South.

 

[lengualo]

Would be very different if you grew up in the former industrial heartlands of Scotland, South Wales or Northern England. I was born near Newcastle at the tail end of the Thatcher era but most of the older generation curse her name around here.

What is odd though is that Edie is apparently from Leeds where I believe the mainstream view is pretty similar to here in Newcastle. From the stuff she is posting I'd have assumed she was from the Home Counties or at least some rural area down South.

Yeah, I get that. I'm just musing over a divide I have noticed here thats interesting to me. I think the priorities and talking points of the left have very distinct differences based on generation right now. I'm new here and I've felt a bit like class is this big thing, whereas elsewhere it isnt and you're going to be judged on completely different terms. It came out of left field to me. A lot of left wing talking points amongst Gen Z and Millennials aren't that present here, and vice versa. I think its generational.

 

[Gramsci]

Thing is brogdale everyone else manages to have a difference of opinion without resorting to insult. I’m embarrassed for you more than anything.

That said I don’t gaf. And happy to answer. Have a ton of washing to do first tho

I think you have forgotten Spymaster

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The idea that Thatcher saved the UK economy is so far from the truth, it's kind of depressing that anyone buys it tbh. It's like they still look at this and think it had a point.

Unemployment in May, 1979 (time of election): 1.3 million
Unemployment in May, 1982, three years later: 3 million

Staggering economic incompetence and mismanagement.

 

[Rimbaud]

Yeah, I get that. I'm just musing over a divide I have noticed here thats interesting to me. I think the priorities and talking points of the left have very distinct differences based on generation right now. I'm new here and I've felt a bit like class is this big thing, whereas elsewhere it isnt and you're going to be judged on completely different terms. A lot of left wing talking points amongst Gen Z and Millennials aren't that present here, and vice versa. I think its generational.

It's partly generational but also regional to an extent. I think the traditional Labour heartlands still think in terms of class moreso than the South, but not as much as they did historically.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's partly generational but also regional to an extent. I think the traditional Labour heartlands still think in terms of class moreso than the South, but not as much as they did historically.

Whatever, it is founded on ignorance and an unwillingness to find things out. Listening to tory twats talk about how Thatcher saved Britain and not bothering with the small amount of trouble it would take to check the facts and discover that it's total bollocks.

 

[lengualo]

Whatever, it is founded on ignorance and an unwillingness to find things out. Listening to tory twats talk about how Thatcher saved Britain and not bothering with the small amount of trouble it would take to check the facts and discover that it's total bollocks.

Sorry, thats not what I meant. What I meant is there is this talking point that feels irrelevant, like my mother says this and it feels politically obsolete.

It's partly generational but also regional to an extent. I think the traditional Labour heartlands still think in terms of class moreso than the South, but not as much as they did historically.

Maybe so, but amongst younger people the idea of working class and middle class can be really blurred and I think pre and post Thatcher or maybe Major/Blair political thinking can have fundamentally different leans. Like I don't think working class/middle class matters as much, because I think left wing thinking is more either a patchwork of Social Democrat and Socialist ideas with a very strong lean into progressive thinking, social mobility, and climate. The latter 3 are the big issues that define ones position more than anything else. It looks like the reverse is true here.

 

[maomao]

From the stuff she is posting I'd have assumed she was from the Home Counties or at least some rural area down South.

I'm pretty sure Edie's a Londoner who migrated to Leeds.

A lot of working-class Londoners remember Thatcher fondly, because a lot of them got a cheap house at the beginning of a housing boom out of it (300,000 council houses in London sold through right to buy I believe).

 

[Rimbaud]

I'm pretty sure Edie's a Londoner who migrated to Leeds.

A lot of working-class Londoners remember Thatcher fondly, because a lot of them got a cheap house at the beginning of a housing boom out of it (300,000 council houses in London sold through right to buy I believe).

That makes more sense.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

I'm pretty sure Edie's a Londoner who migrated to Leeds.

A lot of working-class Londoners remember Thatcher fondly, because a lot of them got a cheap house at the beginning of a housing boom out of it (300,000 council houses in London sold through right to buy I believe).

Not this working class Londoner.

My main memory of Thatcher is that she declared war on the unions and workers' rights.

 

[maomao]

Not this working class Londoner.

My main memory of Thatcher is that she declared war on the unions and workers' rights.

Of course, a lot of doesn't mean all or even most. And RTB was the beginning of the London housing crisis. A huge proportion of the people who bought sold and moved out to the home counties when prices went up leaving hundreds of thousands of properties in the hands of the worst kind of landlords.

 

[lengualo]

Of course, a lot of doesn't mean all or even most. And RTB was the beginning of the London housing crisis. A huge proportion of the people who bought sold and moved out to the home counties when prices went up leaving hundreds of thousands of properties in the hands of the worst kind of landlords.

There was also a lot of white flight in the 80's and 90's which contributed massively. Might have been closely related to what you're talking about though.

 

[Pickman's model]

That surgeon is able to do what they like in their free time. To suggest that doctors should be forced to only work for the state is frankly insane.

why is it frankly insane?

 

[not a trot]

Not this working class Londoner.

My main memory of Thatcher is that she declared war on the unions and workers' rights.

And won three elections whilst doing so. The working class were starting to show they had no affiliation with any mass movement. You don't see many poor trade union leaders.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

And won three elections whilst doing so. The working class were starting to show they had no affiliation with any mass movement. You don't see many poor trade union leaders.

Yes, never winning a majority of the votes, though. She won enough votes in the UK's stupid system by dividing the country into winners and losers and gaining enough of the votes of the 'winners' to stay in power. But at least half the country utterly despised her and everything she stood for, even as she was winning elections.

 

[lengualo]

why is it frankly insane?

Because private healthcare does serve a purpose, the important thing is that the NHS is properly funded, desirable to work in, and functions.

To use a specific example, when my SO was here as a visitor for 6 months it was harder to get the birth control pill through the NHS and she has an ongoing medical issue for which the NHS would not have been accessible to her if she had needed it, we planned her time here around it in the knowledge that private was an option. The NHS is really important but there are always going to be holes and edge cases which need to be dealt with.

A lot of elective stuff can be less desirable to use the NHS for too. Its not going to have the same accessibility, and nor should it.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That surgeon is able to do what they like in their free time. To suggest that doctors should be forced to only work for the state is frankly insane.

Lots of employers set limits on what their employees are allowed to do work-wise outside of their normal working hours. It is legal to write restrictions into contracts, and it's a bit of a no-brainer when it comes to surgeons, I would suggest. Dow we want to be operated on by a surgeon who is tired after taking on a second job?

 

[lengualo]

Lots of employers set limits on what their employees are allowed to do work-wise outside of their normal working hours. It is legal to write restrictions into contracts, and it's a bit of a no-brainer when it comes to surgeons, I would suggest. Dow we want to be operated on by a surgeon who is tired after taking on a second job?

But that can be resolved through maximum worktime limits.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

To use a specific example, when my SO was here as a visitor for 6 months it was harder to get the birth control pill through the NHS and she has an ongoing medical issue for which the NHS would not have been accessible to her if she had needed it, we planned her time here around it in the knowledge that private was an option.

That's easily fixable within the NHS system, though. Just needs a sensible change in the rules. Not an argument for a private sector.

 

[Pickman's model]

Because private healthcare does serve a purpose, the important thing is that the NHS is properly funded, desirable to work in, and functions.

To use a specific example, when my SO was here as a visitor for 6 months it was harder to get the birth control pill through the NHS and she has an ongoing medical issue for which the NHS would not have been accessible to her if she had needed it, we planned her time here around it in the knowledge that private was an option. The NHS is really important but there are always going to be holes and edge cases which need to be dealt with.

A lot of elective stuff can be less desirable to use the NHS for too. Its not going to have the same accessibility, and nor should it.

if i'd wanted your opinion on the subject i wouldn't have quoted edie. as for 'elective stuff' we've mentioned cataract operations several times on this thread, and the way the private treatment of the same has had an effect on the nhs ability to provide a service for those eye ops.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But that can be resolved through maximum worktime limits.

Maximum worktime limits could and should cover the doctor's full week at the NHS.

This is senior doctors wanting things both ways. They still want the prestige that comes with working at a major teaching hospital, for example, but they are also greedy and want even more money. In fact, in many cases, they need the prestige of working at a major teaching hospital to give them the kudos and hours of experience needed to attract private patients.

Bottom line: There are only so many trained surgeons (and invariably, they trained in the NHS). Every patient they operate on privately is being operated on at the expense of someone on an NHS waiting list. It stinks.

 

[lengualo]

That's easily fixable within the NHS system, though. Just needs a sensible change in the rules. Not an argument for a private sector.

But is that realistic and would it even be wise, we have issues with the public bitching about health tourists as it is. I think we'd be onto a non starter allowing what I described on the NHS.

if i'd wanted your opinion on the subject i wouldn't have quoted edie. as for 'elective stuff' we've mentioned cataract operations several times on this thread, and the way the private treatment of the same has had an effect on the nhs ability to provide a service for those eye ops.

Sorry, I didn't realise I wasn't allowed to voice an opinion in a public discussion. I was mostly talking about a very specific edge case scenario though.

Maximum worktime limits could and should cover the doctor's full week at the NHS.

This is senior doctors wanting things both ways. They still want the prestige that comes with working at a major teaching hospital, for example, but they are also greedy and want even more money. In fact, in many cases, they need the prestige of working at a major teaching hospital to give them the kudos and hours of experience needed to attract private patients.

Bottom line: There are only so many trained surgeons (and invariably, they trained in the NHS). Every patient they operate on privately is being operated on at the expense of someone on an NHS waiting list. It stinks.

Yeah, but isn't that more of an issue around the policy of how many hours doctors can put in and a result of the mess the Torys have made of the NHS?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Consultants in the NHS. How do they possibly get by?

I mean this must be a part-time contract, surely, with those numbers.

 

[kabbes]

That surgeon is able to do what they like in their free time. To suggest that doctors should be forced to only work for the state is frankly insane.

I’m contractually obliged not to work for any employer but my own. That’s pretty standard in the private sector.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I’m contractually obliged not to work for any employer but my own. That’s pretty standard in the private sector.

Yep. The default is that moonlighting is allowed unless a contract specifies otherwise, but it is entirely legal and commonplace for contracts to specify otherwise, particularly for senior positions.

 

[PTK]

If someone was a "health tourist", then the NHS could charge them.

I think it simply wrong that someone should wait longer in a queue for an operation because someone has paid to jump the queue and get the operation ahead of them. The proverbial Martian would find this strange.

It's not so much banning surgeons from working for private hospitals, as abolishing private hospitals.

 

[lengualo]

That's easily fixable within the NHS system, though. Just needs a sensible change in the rules. Not an argument for a private sector.

I'm actually going to dig into this because there is a lot more to it than may be obvious without having gone through that kind of process. If NHS treatments were free for visitors then in my position I'd be like "yeah, thats great" on a surface level.

When my GF was here as a visitor before she got a visa we needed to get the contraceptive pill twice. Its actually free for her to obtain on the NHS, and we did both.

When we did it privately she only had to fill in some details online, have a quick call, and she could pick up her pill supply for £30. It was simple, she could do it independently herself, and knew that in doing so she couldn't get into trouble.

When we did it through the NHS she had to call the doctors surgery, register as a visitor with the surgery, have an appointment with a nurse who approved her pill, and got it for free on the NHS.

Sounds easy, but it isn't. It's a purely ideological thought that neglects the reality of doing it for the people who have to.

For one, she was paranoid that she wouldn't be entitled to do this and that she could get into trouble or jeopardise the visa she was applying for in a year, or that she would be told to go away by the docs because logically in her head this isn't something she should be able to do. She also felt like she was "taking advantage" of the NHS and felt guilty for using it for something as trivial as the pill.

She, being a foreign national who has no bloody clue how it works here, coming from a country where you just get it over the counter at the pharmacy, needed me, a man, stood with her holding her hand through the process because she didn't have a damned clue how anything worked, and needed me to come into the nurses room with her in case she didn't understand anything. This was humiliating for her, she walked away asking whether they might have throught she was some kind of sex slave who was being escorted to get the pill. Its irrational and paranoid for sure, but its a sensitive thing that women tend to deal with independently and if you're not a British citizen or visa holder then you're engaging with a system with a high degree of uncertainty and need help to do something you'd normally do yourself.

Then when she applied for her visa they wanted to know whether she'd ever used the NHS for anything and had to inform the Home Office of each occasion with detail which stressed the hell out of her. She also needed the dates which she couldn't remember, thank god I found the date on the box which she'd kept in case she needed the same pill again and was thankfully at the back of a cupboard.