Immigration to the UK - do you have concerns?

[furluxor]

This is a bit of an obvious point, but I guess someone needs to say it: there's the ethics of paying for private treatment when you need it and cannot get it on the NHS, and then there's the structural issue of private healthcare being allowed to poach doctors from the NHS or even exist alongside. Different questions.

 

[lengualo]

If someone was a "health tourist", then the NHS could charge them.

I think it simply wrong that someone should wait longer in a queue for an operation because someone has paid to jump the queue and get the operation ahead of them. The proverbial Martian would find this strange.

It's not so much banning surgeons from working for private hospitals, as abolishing private hospitals.

Yes, there is a problem but by abolishing the private institution you create another problem and typically access (see my last post) is going to be more complicated in the NHS route for someone who is a visitor. Therefore, I think the answer is to regulate how doctors are allowed to work between NHS and private, fund the NHS correctly, and ensure the NHS is a desirable place to work and use in the first place.

 

[Pickman's model]

Sorry, I didn't realise I wasn't allowed to voice an opinion in a public discussion. I was mostly talking about a very specific edge case scenario though.

when i'm asking someone about something they have said then it is fairly plain whose opinion it is i am seeking

 

[PTK]

This is a bit of an obvious point, but I guess someone needs to say it: there's the ethics of paying for private treatment when you need it and cannot get it on the NHS, and then there's the structural issue of private healthcare being allowed to poach doctors from the NHS or even exist alongside. Different questions.

Yep, indeed.

 

[lengualo]

whe i'm asking someone about something they have said then it is fairly plain whose opinion it is i am seeking

Bruh, its a public forum and we all interject on things people say all of the time, because its public discussion. Being prissy with me because you perceive me as politically at odds with you is about as helpful as a hole in the head. But noted, I won't respond to your posts unless its clear I am welcome to do so.

 

[PTK]

Yes, there is a problem but by abolishing the private institution you create another problem and typically access (see my last post) is going to be more complicated in the NHS route for someone who is a visitor. Therefore, I think the answer is to regulate how doctors are allowed to work between NHS and private, fund the NHS correctly, and ensure the NHS is a desirable place to work and use in the first place.

Thanks for your previous post. It pointed out something of which I was not aware. More importantly to me, it reminded me that I had not taken an important pill that I take every day

 

[RevolutionSound]

Maximum worktime limits could and should cover the doctor's full week at the NHS.

This is senior doctors wanting things both ways. They still want the prestige that comes with working at a major teaching hospital, for example, but they are also greedy and want even more money. In fact, in many cases, they need the prestige of working at a major teaching hospital to give them the kudos and hours of experience needed to attract private patients.

Bottom line: There are only so many trained surgeons (and invariably, they trained in the NHS). Every patient they operate on privately is being operated on at the expense of someone on an NHS waiting list. It stinks.

A lot of consultants have fingers in other pies too. I know some who own mental health supported housing, for example, and then that's used as a preferential provider for their NHS patients.

 

[Pickman's model]

This is a bit of an obvious point, but I guess someone needs to say it: there's the ethics of paying for private treatment when you need it and cannot get it on the NHS, and then there's the structural issue of private healthcare being allowed to poach doctors from the NHS or even exist alongside. Different questions.

not entirely. the one leads onto the other. people paying for cataract operations, for example, are hollowing out the ability of the nhs to provide that service for people who cannot pay for cataract operations. it's not a simple question of jumping the queue or whether people should pay for something they are already paying for in taxes. it's a question of how you regard other people in the same situation, do you show solidarity with them or not.

 

[maomao]

Bruh, its a public forum and we all interject on things people say all of the time, because its public discussion. Being prissy with me because you perceive me as politically at odds with you is about as helpful as a hole in the head. But noted, I won't respond to your posts unless its clear I am welcome to do so.

Ignore him. You're allowed to respond to any post you like, as are we all.

 

[PTK]

not entirely. the one leads onto the other. people paying for cataract operations, for example, are hollowing out the ability of the nhs to provide that service for people who cannot pay for cataract operations. it's not a simple question of jumping the queue or whether people should pay for something they are already paying for in taxes. it's a question of how you regard other people in the same situation, do you show solidarity with them or not.

Yes, but I forgive people if they are very desperate.

 

[Pickman's model]

Bruh, its a public forum and we all interject on things people say all of the time, because its public discussion. Being prissy with me because you perceive me as politically at odds with you is about as helpful as a hole in the head. But noted, I won't respond to your posts unless its clear I am welcome to do so.

as i have tried to make clear, i sought edie's opinion not yours, not because you may not have a cogent and well informed view, not because of your politics, but because she introduced the frankly insane thing and i'd like to hear her expand on the point.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes, but I forgive people if they are very desperate.

at some point we'll all be desperate for some treatment or other. but is it right to seek it through alternative means if by so doing you're shitting on other people's ability to access the same through the nhs?

 

[lazythursday]

at some point we'll all be desperate for some treatment or other. but is it right to seek it through alternative means if by so doing you're shitting on other people's ability to access the same through the nhs?

It's really fucking difficult when you end up in this situation though. I've always been extremely opposed to private medicine but when a friend of mine was declining rapidly and just not being diagnosed by the NHS let alone treated I helped her pay for a private MRI because I just couldn't watch the situation continue. There are limits to what principles can endure when pushed to extremes.

 

[Gramsci]

I understand the country by the late 1970s was on its knees due to strikes and it took Thatcher to pull it back. I think she handled the strikes brutally and incorrectly, but at least the country was saved economically and prospered.

One of the good things, and something I’m proud of, is that Britain is very centrist and somehow manages to eschew the extremes of right and left.

I don't remember Thatcher as a centrist.

 

[lengualo]

Thanks for your previous post. It pointed out something of which I was not aware. More importantly to me, it reminded me that I had not taken an important pill that I take every day

Yeah, dont forget to take your own pills

 

[Pickman's model]

Ignore him. You're allowed to respond to any post you like, as are we all

I never said 'don't respond' I said 'I'm not interested in your opinion as it's not what I sought'. Two different things

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's really fucking difficult when you end up in this situation though. I've always been extremely opposed to private medicine but when a friend of mine was declining rapidly and just not being diagnosed by the NHS let alone treated I helped her pay for a private MRI because I just couldn't watch the situation continue. There are limits to what principles can endure when pushed to extremes.

Yes, I would not judge anyone going private out of desperation when the NHS has let them down, an increasingly common scenario.

As mentioned above, that is very different from supporting the system that produces that scenario, though, or for that matter supporting the rights of doctors to perpetuate it by doing private work on top of their already generous NHS pay.

In fact I can imagine a scenario in which one could both feel forced to go private to see a doctor and utterly despise that doctor for doing said work privately. We at the bottom are powerless. Others, such as consultant doctors, are less powerless.

 

[maomao]

I never said 'don't respond' I said 'I'm not interested in your opinion as it's not what I sought'. Two different things

But by posting that, rather than just paying no attention to his post, you were implying (whether you intended tomorrow not) that he was in the wrong for posting rather than you far a) reading and b) replying to a post you claim not to be interested in.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

It's really fucking difficult when you end up in this situation though. I've always been extremely opposed to private medicine but when a friend of mine was declining rapidly and just not being diagnosed by the NHS let alone treated I helped her pay for a private MRI because I just couldn't watch the situation continue. There are limits to what principles can endure when pushed to extremes.

Absolutely.

 

[furluxor]

not entirely. the one leads onto the other. people paying for cataract operations, for example, are hollowing out the ability of the nhs to provide that service for people who cannot pay for cataract operations. it's not a simple question of jumping the queue or whether people should pay for something they are already paying for in taxes. it's a question of how you regard other people in the same situation, do you show solidarity with them or not.

Well this is what a series of corrupt governments does to a society. You have people arguing whether others (or their family members) should be foregoing medical treatment in solidarity. I hope you won't end up in that situation, because whilst there's no individual response to a structural problem, you'll be even less able to help those suffering if you're unwell/dead.

 

[MickiQ]

Cataract operations are still being paid for by the NHS, they're just not being done by the NHS. I know someone whose had it done recently, optician referred him to Specmedia (which is the company that does it round here) and he was seen within about a week, operation less than a fortnight after that. Still free at point of delivery he didn't pay nowt for it since the bill went to the NHS.
The doctor in the posted article isn't really complaining that cataract operations are being done outside the NHS, he's complaining that paying for all these two week cataract operations rather than making people wait 6 months for them is draining the budget that would be otherwise be used for other eye related procedures. The thing I take away from that is firstly the budget isn't enough (deffo the crux of the problem there) and secondly the doctor reckons some procedures are more important than others and he should decide which ones they are. Which makes sense in a way but of course he's not the one forced to see the world as a grey blur whilst waiting to make his way to the top of the waiting list. There are clearly dangers in letting anyone even doctors decide who should wait and who shouldn't.
As for going private in the true sense and paying for something we are definitely getting into very morally grey areas here, you're not really showing solidarity with others on the same waiting list as you since they don't know you are, you don't know who they are and it's not really helping them to get treatment in any meaningful sense. I suspect for most people there is a sliding scale with principles and worrying about the cost down one axis and the inconvenience of waiting and the amount of pain they're in down the other. I've never been in this position but I can well imagine that for some people eventually the second will overtake the first and they will swallow any principles and fork out. I wouldn't condemn anyone for making that decision and should push ever come to shove I'd probably do the same.

 

[The39thStep]

I understand the country by the late 1970s was on its knees due to strikes and it took Thatcher to pull it back. I think she handled the strikes brutally and incorrectly, but at least the country was saved economically and prospered.

One of the good things, and something I’m proud of, is that Britain is very centrist and somehow manages to eschew the extremes of right and left.

I think you need to understand a bit more tbh especially who were saved, who prospered and who ended up on their knees. The Thatcher years saw unemployment rising from 1.5m to 3m, the 11.8% unemployment rate was the highest since the great depression, the UK losing 15% of its manufacturing base, Scotland itself losing 20% of its workforce, interest rates going up to 17%, wage stagnation for the lowest paid, crime rates, divorces and single parent rates soared. The gap between the rich and the poor became the highest in recorded history .

 

[Sue]

I think the priorities and talking points of the left have very distinct differences based on generation right now. I'm new here and I've felt a bit like class is this big thing, whereas elsewhere it isnt and you're going to be judged on completely different terms. It came out of left field to me. A lot of left wing talking points amongst Gen Z and Millennials aren't that present here, and vice versa. I think its generational.

To paraphrase:

The greatest trick capitalism ever played was convincing people class doesn't exist/matter.

(Maybe not the greatest but...)

People your age may think class isn't a big thing but yes, yes it is.

 

[brogdale]

.

 

[Saul Goodman]

The idea that Thatcher saved the UK economy is so far from the truth, it's kind of depressing that anyone buys it tbh. It's like they still look at this and think it had a point.

Unemployment in May, 1979 (time of election): 1.3 million
Unemployment in May, 1982, three years later: 3 million

Staggering economic incompetence and mismanagement.

When she closed the coal mines, Britain still needed coal. The closure of the mines and subsequent unemployment meant it was costing much more to import it than it would to dig it out of the ground at home, but Thatcher hated the unions and the working class, and she didn't give a fuck what it cost financially, or the long-term ramifications from unemployment, economic deprivation and poverty, so long as she got to stamp all over them.
Thatcher single-handedly destroyed Britain's industries and communities, from coal to cars, steel, ship building, etc, and I'm actually shocked that anybody thinks she was anything other than a cunt.

 

[Gramsci]

I don't remember Thatcher as a centrist.

Sorry Edie why did you find this post funny?

I was being serious.

I became an adult at about same time as she was first elected.

I lived through the Thatcherite period in London.

Without doing a long post I don't think any reasonable person whether left or right would see her as a centrist.

She did totally divide this country. People either loved her or hated her. Not complaining about that. But a centrist no.

 

[Gramsci]

Yeah, I get that. I'm just musing over a divide I have noticed here thats interesting to me. I think the priorities and talking points of the left have very distinct differences based on generation right now. I'm new here and I've felt a bit like class is this big thing, whereas elsewhere it isnt and you're going to be judged on completely different terms. It came out of left field to me. A lot of left wing talking points amongst Gen Z and Millennials aren't that present here, and vice versa. I think its generational.

Not a trick question. And not having a go at you but what are examples of the talking points?

Getting it back to the thread In London I notice a generational change over immigration.

The older white Londoner I work with is of the old school immigration is the problem with this country. Old school east ender. Like Spymaster Dave. He tells me his daughter tells him the world's moved on.

Those his sons/ daughter age are much more liberal minded and progressive.

I also sometimes work for a company in London where most people are less than half my age. Surprised but Corbyn was popular. On things like Brexit ( against) tolerance of others and immigration they are progressive. For them housing and the precarious nature of work is a problem. Lot of people on short term contracts that get renewed or not .Tories just don't relate to them in any way.

I actually think Starmer government are making a mistake in not putting their concerns on top of a list. And taking a more progressive view of immigration.

So on concerns about immigration. What I see in London is generational shift to it not being a concern as much as it was in London.

Also I've been on a lot of the Palestinian demos. This also surprised me a new younger generation who supports Palestinian rights.

Can't say whether this applies to outside London.

But imo over my time in London what was considered loony left thinking on race , immigration and progressive ideas are now more mainstream. Even if people don't go into discussions of class.

 

[JimW]

When she closed the coal mines, Britain still needed coal. The closure of the mines and subsequent unemployment meant it was costing much more to import it than it would to dig it out of the ground at home, but Thatcher hated the unions and the working class, and she didn't give a fuck what it cost financially, or the long-term ramifications from unemployment, economic deprivation and poverty, so long as she got to stamp all over them.
Thatcher single-handedly destroyed Britain's industries and communities, from coal to cars, steel, ship building, etc, and I'm actually shocked that anybody thinks she was anything other than a cunt.

Yes, she followed an agenda to shape the country in a certain way, "economics is the method, the goal is to change souls" or words to that effect. The unemployment was deliberate, so was the denial of housing access. Fashioning a country safe for the wealthy to stay that way. It's astonishing people buy them as 'conservatives', they ripped up anything that didn't fit their plan.

 

[Gramsci]

Just like to point out that one of the more unpleasant aspects of the present immigration system is that hospitals are meant to deny treatment to people if they cannot prove government defined entitlement.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/ournhs/how-nhs-staff-are-fighting-back-against-the-hostile-environment/

Making health workers become border police.

All part of the hostile environment

 

[Edie]

Lots of employers set limits on what their employees are allowed to do work-wise outside of their normal working hours. It is legal to write restrictions into contracts, and it's a bit of a no-brainer when it comes to surgeons, I would suggest. Dow we want to be operated on by a surgeon who is tired after taking on a second job?

I don’t know if you’re trying to wind me up here but surgeons aren’t tired because of second jobs. Try and work an NHS surgical rota and get back to me.

I’m honestly flabbergasted about private companies not allowing people to work a second job. Like kabbes That’s news to me.

I think if the NHS demanded that doctors would just tell them to fuck off.

I’ve given blood, sweat and tears to the NHS. I’ve paid my dues. I’ll continue to work in the nhs because, partly, I believe in it and I want to treat children whose parents couldn’t afford private healthcare. I could earn double my wage by working completely privately. And partly because some really good medicine goes on in the NHS and private providers are variable. But I’ll also develop a private practice in London.