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Immigration to the UK - do you have concerns?

Just on the surgeons, if I read the posts from an NHS worker correctly, they’re simultaneously exhausted from working the long hours an NHS contract demands, but also should be able to work for private providers in their free time?

If I was tired from as well paid a job like surgeon, I probably wouldn’t look to spend my free time doing a second job :confused:
Having worked in a small local private hospital (room service/house keeping) i would hazard a guess that it's probably greed unfortunately
 
This can work both ways unfortunately.

The Council ward I live in ( the boundaries have changed recently ) was the most deprived in Lambeth. White British ( me) are a minority of the population of the Ward

A lot of the Afro Carribbean British in my area regard racism as cause of the deprivation. They are second generation and born in area. So understandably they see inequality as largely race issue. Not class.

Coming from outside London I don't see it that way. A while ago I looked up the stats of the Council wards in Plymouth where I was born. One of the whitest towns in England. The level of deprivation ( top ten percent in country ) was exactly same as the Council Ward in London I live in where majority are not White British

I was glad David Olusoga said the following


It's really important that this is said.

And this by him



It's what our Labour politicians should be saying.
Yep, and Olusoga's concluding comment places the blame firmly on the UK's state actors (from all 3 Governing parties of the last decades) who have normalised anti-immigrant sentiment and poisoned the body politic. Unfortunately, we've seen posts in this thread exemplifying how endemic such sentiments have become amongst those vulnerable to such messaging.

They and others have denounced the ways in which the last government poisoned political debate and normalised Islamophobia, while at the same time dismissing warnings of the growing dangers of far-right extremism.
 
The Red Wall used to be hard left, there's a small mining town near me where the main streets are named after Marx and Lenin. That they've fallen to the right (although nowhere near as completely as the media narrative tells it btw) is a consequence of the mainstream left's retreat from class and socialism. Similarly Le Pen is popular in places that used to be Communist Party strongholds.

Racism and anti-immigration sentiment has a lot to do with it. These are places that went in hard on Brexit. Being economically and socially on the left does not automatically mean someone has modern socially progressive views.
 
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it is actively worse
new labour announced so far
...
-cuts to winter allowance
-proposed ban on smoking in pub gardens ffs

so far it is actively worse

these two arent actively worse. Cuts to winter fuel allowance I dont have a problem with so long as the thresholds are properly set. A conversation around whether means testing is less efficient than winter fuel allowances being universal is another matter though.

The smoking bans I'm all for, as a smoker I support it.
 
Racism and anti-immigration sentiment has a lot to do with it. These are places that went in hard on Brexit. Being economically and socially on the left does not automatically mean someone has modern socially progressive views.
Right. And if you want to understand why that is, you have to understand the way that power relations affect people, and the way these are institutionally reproduced. Power is the ability to affect other people’s actions. You therefore can’t understand actions without understanding power and how power is used. And that is the same thing as understanding class relations and how these create a field of how meaning is constructed and field of possible actions.
 
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Have been following this thread but have been quite reluctant to post.....there is quite a lot of disquiet and anger about immigration here (although was proud to see locals gathering and successfully see off a few that tried to make a riot)....this is not a city, it has( for a town) a very large population, services are really struggling, the hospital is on it's arse, doctors appointments can be very difficult to get, NHS dentists are virtually non-existant and housing is a massive problem. if you then add to that over the last 20 years or so significant waves of immigration, which appear to be continuing, whole areas of the town have changed their identity in a relatively short amount of time. HMO's have become a scourge, too many people in already densely populated areas, fly tipping,parking etc, which may seem trivial but are big issues for everyone.....have no doubt that there is a element of xenophobia/racism but this is mainly about population pressure...whilst there is obviously a failure to do anything about the stuff i outlined at the beginning it's just no good to deny the anger people feel and write them all off as racist thugs. Patronising and condescending attitudes to people that are mostly exisiting at the botton of the social pile who feel that no one listens to them, that feel (rightly or wrongly) that they are under siege just pushes them into the hands of the like of farage and the far right.
It's all very well to say this is a fault of the state in not sorting out properly the host of social issues but in the meantime people are stuggling and large numbers of immigrants are compounding the problem.
 
Right. And if you want to understand why that is, you have to understand the way that power relations affect people, and the way these are institutionally reproduced. Power is the ability to affect other people’s actions. You therefore can’t understand actions without understanding power and how power is used. And that is the same thing as understanding class relations and how these create a field of how meaning is constructed and field of possible actions.

I think perhaps our empasse is more to do with how we are defining class. Just to be clear, if we refer to Marx I dont believe the capitalist class and the modern middle class are adjacent. I think the modern middle class and the working class are the same group according to the spirit of what Marx was referring to. The majority of the middle class is a nominally better off section of the working class. I also think we've created another disadvantaged class below it (also created by capitalism in the sense that they no longer serve it and are now left behind).

That is my underlying view towards class and that when we draw attack lines between the two we are playing into divide and rule.

I'm acutely aware that a lot of very rich people have set a lot of people against each other for their own ends. But that does not extend to them automatically having created the underlying sentiment in the first place. Hatred today often starts in the home, and while you may be able to trace the source back to Marxist theory, I don't think its at all helpful in the modern environment to singularly tack it onto that. We combat racism through education and improving peoples lot in life.
 
Have been following this thread but have been quite reluctant to post.....there is quite a lot of disquiet and anger about immigration here (although was proud to see locals gathering and successfully see off a few that tried to make a riot)....this is not a city, it has( for a town) a very large population, services are really struggling, the hospital is on it's arse, doctors appointments can be very difficult to get, NHS dentists are virtually non-existant and housing is a massive problem. if you then add to that over the last 20 years or so significant waves of immigration, which appear to be continuing, whole areas of the town have changed their identity in a relatively short amount of time. HMO's have become a scourge, too many people in already densely populated areas, fly tipping,parking etc, which may seem trivial but are big issues for everyone.....have no doubt that there is a element of xenophobia/racism but this is mainly about population pressure...whilst there is obviously a failure to do anything about the stuff i outlined at the beginning it's just no good to deny the anger people feel and write them all off as racist thugs. Patronising and condescending attitudes to people that are mostly exisiting at the botton of the social pile who feel that no one listens to them, that feel (rightly or wrongly) that they are under siege just pushes them into the hands of the like of farage and the far right.
It's all very well to say this is a fault of the state in not sorting out properly the host of social issues but in the meantime people are stuggling and large numbers of immigrants are compounding the problem.

Or, as Ash Sarkar recently framed it, isnt it more that the government dumped a bunch of people who have needs onto a community of people who have needs?

You could liken it to a form of segragation like that.

But, having problems with your GP surgery does not compel people to round on a hotel housing immigrants with the intentions to burn them alive within it.

When you do so you deny white supremacy which is at the heart of racist belief. What the government and the instigators capitalised on was that the disadvantaged would be more likely to hear the call to action. Farage didnt create the racists, he targeted people in a section of society he could exploit.
 
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Racism and anti-immigration sentiment has a lot to do with it. These are places that went in hard on Brexit. Being economically and socially on the left does not automatically mean someone has modern socially progressive views.
Yes because the far right have been active in these communities propagating that the EU is why the mines closed down and all sorts of nonsense. Meanwhile the Labour Party said "they have nowhere else to go". If the left writes them off and the far right doesn't what do you expect to happen?

Edit to add: Also, immigration is not particularly common in the "red wall" places, so you'd have to ask why the places with less immigration have more anti-immigration sentiment.
 
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Or, as Ash Sarkar recently framed it, isnt it more that the government dumped a bunch of people who have needs onto a community of people who have needs?

You could liken it to a form of segragation like that.

But, having problems with your GP surgery does not compel people to round on a hotel housing immigrants with the intentions to burn them alive within it.

When you do so you deny white supremacy which is at the heart of racist belief. What the government and the instigators capitalised on was that the disadvantaged would be more likely to hear the call to action. Farage didnt create the racists, he targeted people in a section of society he could exploit.
No one has done that here, as i said in my post a small amount of people tried to start and were quite rightly stopped by a group of local people
 
Have been following this thread but have been quite reluctant to post.....there is quite a lot of disquiet and anger about immigration here (although was proud to see locals gathering and successfully see off a few that tried to make a riot)....this is not a city, it has( for a town) a very large population, services are really struggling, the hospital is on it's arse, doctors appointments can be very difficult to get, NHS dentists are virtually non-existant and housing is a massive problem. if you then add to that over the last 20 years or so significant waves of immigration, which appear to be continuing, whole areas of the town have changed their identity in a relatively short amount of time. HMO's have become a scourge, too many people in already densely populated areas, fly tipping,parking etc, which may seem trivial but are big issues for everyone.....have no doubt that there is a element of xenophobia/racism but this is mainly about population pressure...whilst there is obviously a failure to do anything about the stuff i outlined at the beginning it's just no good to deny the anger people feel and write them all off as racist thugs. Patronising and condescending attitudes to people that are mostly exisiting at the botton of the social pile who feel that no one listens to them, that feel (rightly or wrongly) that they are under siege just pushes them into the hands of the like of farage and the far right.
It's all very well to say this is a fault of the state in not sorting out properly the host of social issues but in the meantime people are stuggling and large numbers of immigrants are compounding the problem.
If there hadn't been "large numbers of immigrants" those problems would still be there. If you stop immigration those problems will still be there.
 
If there hadn't been "large numbers of immigrants" those problems would still be there. If you stop immigration those problems will still be there.
yes i realise that, am not stupid you know but adding large amounts of other people surely just add to the issue ?....am not advocating stopping immigration, my kids wouldn't be who they are without immigration, immigration has made this country what is is after all am just trying to point out that not all people who have concerns are not racist thugs.......knew it was a mistake posting on this thread to deaf ears
 
Also the majority of the immigration here is white eastern europeans

We might be in similar areas. I remember what the Eastern Europeans came. We had very few minorities around these parts, often referred to in derrogatory terms. I remember what people said when the Eastern Europeans came "at least you could tell the darkies were foreign, these fuckers look like us". That was around the millenium.

How do you bridge me being told to speak English in England when I was on the phone speaking another language with public service investment? Even when they learned I was English they continued with some bollocks.

Yes because the far right have been active in these communities propagating that the EU is why the mines closed down and all sorts of nonsense. Meanwhile the Labour Party said "they have nowhere else to go". If the left writes them off and the far right doesn't what do you expect to happen?

My point was that what you're referring to is a call to action that sings to particular underlying beliefs.

Edit to add: Also, immigration is not particularly common in the "red wall" places, so you'd have to ask why the places with less immigration have more anti-immigration sentiment.

I am fully aware of this. Its quite odd isn't it.
 
Edit to add: Also, immigration is not particularly common in the "red wall" places, so you'd have to ask why the places with less immigration have more anti-immigration sentiment
This has not only been asked but also answered a number of times on various threads over the past five weeks
 
yes i realise that, am not stupid you know but adding large amounts of other people surely just add to the issue ?....am not advocating stopping immigration, my kids wouldn't be who they are without immigration, immigration has made this country what is is after all am just trying to point out that not all people who have concerns are not racist thugs.......knew it was a mistake posting on this thread to deaf ears

You could say the same if there was a baby boom with the under 30's. But people wouldn't. Our birth rate is on a downward trajectory though.

Our birth rate is 1.5, because it takes 2 people to create 1 person a birth rate of 2 is flat, over 2 is increasing. So population declines.

In the UK the death rate is currently marginally lower than the birth rate and not only is it increasing as the Baby Boomers get older, it has exceeded the birth rate. As the boomers get older the working population needs to increase to subsidise them.


whole areas of the town have changed their identity in a relatively short amount of time

And what does this actually mean? What are you referring to here? I mean specifics. Are we talking about streets that suddenly have a lot of ethnic restaurants and supermarkets and the likes? Or are we talking about areas that suddenly have people who aren't white British and if so, why does that in itself even matter?
 
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yes i realise that, am not stupid you know but adding large amounts of other people surely just add to the issue ?....am not advocating stopping immigration, my kids wouldn't be who they are without immigration, immigration has made this country what is is after all am just trying to point out that not all people who have concerns are not racist thugs.......knew it was a mistake posting on this thread to deaf ears
"Adding large amounts of people" is just as often internal migration though. Northerners coming South, rural kids heading to the city, etc etc. But we don't see people demanding stricter controls on this kinda movement by and large.

Just cos concerns are real doesn't mean they're not framed by racism.
 
You could say the same if there was a baby boom with the under 30's. But people wouldn't.




And what does this actually mean? What are you referring to here? I mean specifics. Are we talking about streets that suddenly have a lot of ethnic restaurants and supermarkets and the likes? Or are we talking about areas that suddenly have people who aren't white British and if so, why does that in itself even matter?
Why does that even matter to who? I'll tell you something, the amount of effort that goes into managing change at work, not 1% of that effort goes into managing the sort of change outside work even tho as we've seen people can be riled about it. How would you like it if one day your boss said there'd be a new software package next week and you'd better get with the programme? Yet you're saying that changes to where someone lives are of no concern to you and should be of no concern to them even when no explanations given, when businesses change to service new residents and familiar landmarks change. Frankly I'm thinking of the changes gentrification wreaks but precisely the same things happen with immigration.
 
And what does this actually mean? What are you referring to here? I mean specifics. Are we talking about streets that suddenly have a lot of ethnic restaurants and supermarkets and the likes? Or are we talking about areas that suddenly have people who aren't white British and if so, why does that in itself even matter?
Why do you keep mentioning white british ? Two of the main streets leading into the town centre are almost completely different......in the range of things, no it doesn't matter but it's happened quickly and for some people it's hard to deal with. You seem to be trying to get me to say it's all about racism but it's not you know.....people have been let down by successive goverments, fast changes in the demographic of this place causes people to feel uneasy....i work in a smallish supermarket that services a very tight knit working class community so i hear a lot of chat about this issue and i have to say only a very small minority have a racist angle (have called people out if they do)
 
My point was that what you're referring to is a call to action that sings to particular underlying beliefs.

I am fully aware of this. Its quite odd isn't it.

If you're just writing them off as natural racists and not bothering to even attempt to address or explain their economic woes, then don't be surprised that the far right gets an ear when they are providing a scapegoat and an explanation and proposing a solution.

I'd also add that the red wall narrative was massively overblown. Most of the North still comfortably voted Labour in 2019 and the Tories made in-roads into only a handful of seats, many of which (like Darlington, Bishop Auckland) have always had relatively strong Tory presence.
 
these two arent actively worse. Cuts to winter fuel allowance I dont have a problem with so long as the thresholds are properly set. A conversation around whether means testing is less efficient than winter fuel allowances being universal is another matter though.

The smoking bans I'm all for, as a smoker I support it.
The cuts to winter fuel allowance is causing real anxiety and upset among a lot of people, who never thought a Labour government would target OAPs like that.
 
Have been following this thread but have been quite reluctant to post.....there is quite a lot of disquiet and anger about immigration here (although was proud to see locals gathering and successfully see off a few that tried to make a riot)....this is not a city, it has( for a town) a very large population, services are really struggling, the hospital is on it's arse, doctors appointments can be very difficult to get, NHS dentists are virtually non-existant and housing is a massive problem. if you then add to that over the last 20 years or so significant waves of immigration, which appear to be continuing, whole areas of the town have changed their identity in a relatively short amount of time. HMO's have become a scourge, too many people in already densely populated areas, fly tipping,parking etc, which may seem trivial but are big issues for everyone.....have no doubt that there is a element of xenophobia/racism but this is mainly about population pressure...whilst there is obviously a failure to do anything about the stuff i outlined at the beginning it's just no good to deny the anger people feel and write them all off as racist thugs. Patronising and condescending attitudes to people that are mostly exisiting at the botton of the social pile who feel that no one listens to them, that feel (rightly or wrongly) that they are under siege just pushes them into the hands of the like of farage and the far right.
It's all very well to say this is a fault of the state in not sorting out properly the host of social issues but in the meantime people are stuggling and large numbers of immigrants are compounding the problem.
Yes.
 
The cuts to winter fuel allowance is causing real anxiety and upset among a lot of people, who never thought a Labour government would target OAPs like that.
It's the New Labour way. Starmer is Blair mark two. Benefits targetted at the very poorest, which is good for them, but moves away from universalism, which is the most efficient and effective way to deliver benefits to those in need (means-tested benefits always miss a significant number of the people entitled to them).

'But I have a good income and don't need it' is the objection to universalism, but the response to that is 'well in that case, you should be paying taxes on that income such that, not only do you pay for your own allowance, but you contribute towards those of others as well'.
 
If you're just writing them off as natural racists and not bothering to even attempt to address or explain their economic woes, then don't be surprised that the far right gets an ear when they are providing a scapegoat and an explanation and proposing a solution.

I'd also add that the red wall narrative was massively overblown. Most of the North still comfortably voted Labour in 2019 and the Tories made in-roads into only a handful of seats, many of which (like Darlington, Bishop Auckland) have always had relatively strong Tory presence.

No, don't misrepresent what I'm saying because now you are. I agree with you about the systems relationship to the racism. What I disagree with is that the system has somehow created the racism in the first place. The system has given legitimacy to the racist views and ignited the anger, the system has facilitated an affective racial call to action. It has not created the racist views in the first place.

If I were to come at it backwards, if we had a socialist system where things were equal and just then the problem would be improved but the racist views would remain under the surface. They'd be calmed down rather than erradicated.


Why do you keep mentioning white british ? Two of the main streets leading into the town centre are almost completely different......in the range of things, no it doesn't matter but it's happened quickly and for some people it's hard to deal with. You seem to be trying to get me to say it's all about racism but it's not you know.....people have been let down by successive goverments, fast changes in the demographic of this place causes people to feel uneasy....i work in a smallish supermarket that services a very tight knit working class community so i hear a lot of chat about this issue and i have to say only a very small minority have a racist angle (have called people out if they do)

It wasn't a trick question, it was a legitimate one. I'm not trying to get you to say something that reveals you as an evil racist, I'm trying to figure out what the thing is that you are referring to.


Like this:
Two of the main streets leading into the town centre are almost completely different......in the range of things.

So you're referring to a load of ethnic supermarkets, eateries and people who are not "local" if you dont like the term white british? Thats a good thing no? You just want a British roast down the pub and fish and chips? You want a community where obtaining a plantain is like searching for gold? You want anglified Indian cooking sauces from Morrisons but nothing too exciting? Lincolnshire and Cumberland sausages please, none of these smoked Eastern European ones? Fake Mexican themed enchiladas in an Old El Paso box?

One of the things I've noticed about "communities rapidly changing" is that there is a lot of turning up of noses at "the foreign muck" rather than trying to appreciate the differences it brings. In fact, if you're a little bit hard up, the ethnic supermarket is a good place for you to go and if you embrace culture you'll often find that people from poorer countries often eat well in a financially efficient way.

My point is, embrace it, its a bloody good thing. Your community changing is not a bad thing.


You seem to be trying to get me to say it's all about racism but it's not you know

It gets very difficult to square this peg into the hole because this doesn't agree to many peoples experiences of racism. Racism often isn't seen in some extreme form, its usually more pervasive and that type of racism is very common. I come from an area very similar to you, so I know what you're talking about quite intimately and there is a lot of underlying prejudice and its been there my whole life. The last 14 years, especially since Brexit, has not created the problem, its merely brought it to the surface.

people have been let down by successive goverments,

Yes they have.


fast changes in the demographic of this place causes people to feel uneasy

Uneasy?


i work in a smallish supermarket that services a very tight knit working class community so i hear a lot of chat about this issue and i have to say only a very small minority have a racist angle (have called people out if they do)

Just because you don't overhear something overtly racist, or even potentially recognise the subtext, in a public space doesn't really mean much.



Why does that even matter to who? I'll tell you something, the amount of effort that goes into managing change at work, not 1% of that effort goes into managing the sort of change outside work even tho as we've seen people can be riled about it. How would you like it if one day your boss said there'd be a new software package next week and you'd better get with the programme? Yet you're saying that changes to where someone lives are of no concern to you and should be of no concern to them even when no explanations given, when businesses change to service new residents and familiar landmarks change. Frankly I'm thinking of the changes gentrification wreaks but precisely the same things happen with immigration.

I don't think your example is anywhere near equivelant, and a lot of places aren't exactly being gentrified and even if they were thats often not a result of immigration. If anything, if you're poor then immigration and the changes to the local landscape can serve your best interests as I pointed out above.
 
No one has done that here, as i said in my post a small amount of people tried to start and were quite rightly stopped by a group of local people
I understand why you're proud of your local community standing up to violent racism, but the actual take away from your post is that there were, indeed, some in your community who had absorbed far-right/racist anti-immigrant messaging and attempted to use those "concerns" as a pretext for racist violence. Were it not for the good folk in your town this would have happened?

And, anyway, the fact that actual racist riots involving arson with intent took place in other towns is, surely, the most salient point. The fact that this did not happen in your town does not invalidate lengualo 's point.
 
So you're referring to a load of ethnic supermarkets, eateries and people who are not "local" if you dont like the term white british? Thats a good thing no? You just want a British roast down the pub and fish and chips? You want a community where obtaining a plantain is like searching for gold? You want anglified Indian cooking sauces from Morrisons but nothing too exciting? Lincolnshire and Cumberland sausages please, none of these smoked Eastern European ones? Fake Mexican themed enchiladas in an Old El Paso box?
how fucking patronising.
 
yes i realise that, am not stupid you know but adding large amounts of other people surely just add to the issue ?....am not advocating stopping immigration, my kids wouldn't be who they are without immigration, immigration has made this country what is is after all am just trying to point out that not all people who have concerns are not racist thugs.......knew it was a mistake posting on this thread to deaf ears
This is an interesting use of words. I don't think anyone on this thread has suggested that anyone with "concerns about immigration" is, therefore, also a "racist thug". What has been said repeatedly is that holding "concerns about immigration" invariably signifies a susceptibility to the racist arguments of the right which always seek to exploit the fall-out from neoliberal consolidation by casting immigrants as the cause of these failures by government.
 
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