Immigration to the UK - do you have concerns?

[Dystopiary]

I took a photo once of a few pages from a 1930s pictorial encyclopaedia. Edited by Enid Blyton, so as mainstream as you get. I think it tells its own story as to mainstream attitudes of the time about the empire.

View attachment 439244View attachment 439245

This doesn't tell us ordinary working class people (ie, most of the population)'s views, which is what BristolEcho was wondering about here.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That’s pretty textbook petite bourgeoisie. Vulnerable to be crowded out by big capital (while also reliant on big capital) on the one hand, but subject to the politics of self-interest rather than solidarity on the other.

This second part doesn't necessarily follow. They're vulnerable to exploitation due to their position at the bottom of the chain whereby they may well receive a poor price for the goods they make and have little choice but to accept it. Not so different from farmers in that regard. And like farmers, such small producers do well to band together.

 

[lengualo]

Yeah, the current system is a mess and we need to start talking about the positives and need for immigration. The narrative desperately needs changing.

Currently concerned about our universities after international student applications tanked. Quite a few univerities are under financial distress as it is. Thats concerning, international student visa application timescales are down from 3-6 weeks to 1 week. Madness.

 

[scifisam]

BIB - I'm not sure. What even is illegal immigration (genuine question)?

I'm sorry, but I don't really understand why you'd need to ask that as a genuine question.

 

[kabbes]

This second part doesn't necessarily follow. They're vulnerable to exploitation due to their position at the bottom of the chain whereby they may well receive a poor price for the goods they make and have little choice but to accept it. Not so different from farmers in that regard. And like farmers, such small producers do well to band together.

That’s why the petty bourgeoisie have historically appeared on both sides of revolutionary activity. They have something to gain from resisting the power of big capital. However, they also have something to lose from appropriation of property.

 

[kabbes]

This doesn't tell us ordinary working class people (ie, most of the population)'s views, which is what BristolEcho was wondering about here.

True, but it shows what was seen as mainstream at the time. No reason (for a bunch of reasons) to presume that the working-class had a wildly different cultural perspective on it than the ones codifying it into artefacts of symbolic capital.

 

[Dystopiary]

I'm sorry, but I don't really understand why you'd need to ask that as a genuine question.

OK. been trying to think of a better way to word it. I don't think (and perhaps wrongly assuming this is what you meant) that coming to these shores in small boats is actually illegal.

 

[planetgeli]

Fuck's sake. Won't somebody think of the petite bourgeoisie? And the Universities?

Jfc.

 

[maomao]

OK. been trying to think of a better way to word it. I don't think (and perhaps wrongly assuming this is what you meant) that coming to these shores in small boats is actually illegal.

The government describe it as illegal, notably in the Illegal Migration Act, but I'm also not clear what law they're breaking as long as they have an asylum claim and make it immediately on arrival.

 

[Dystopiary]

The government describe it as illegal, notably in the Illegal Migration Act, but I'm also not clear what law they're breaking as long as they have an asylum claim and make it immediately on arrival.

Right, that's what I've been wondering.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

OK. been trying to think of a better way to word it. I don't think (and perhaps wrongly assuming this is what you meant) that coming to these shores in small boats is actually illegal.

I think talking about 'documented' or 'undocumented' (les sans-papiers, as the French would say) is a better way to say it than 'legal' or 'illegal'. A bit like with refugees/asylum seekers, we don't have to accept the terms preferred by the state.

 

[lengualo]

Fuck's sake. Won't somebody think of the petite bourgeoisie? And the Universities?

Jfc.

Yes universities are a concern right now too. It ain't Cambridge and Oxford who are in trouble, its the universities who are more accessible to those from working class and disadvantaged backgrounds who are in trouble. Migration fuels the university industry, and adds a wealth of research to our country.

 

[scifisam]

OK. been trying to think of a better way to word it. I don't think (and perhaps wrongly assuming this is what you meant) that coming to these shores in small boats is actually illegal.

It's really fucking obvious that that is not what I meant at all.

Please do not say "genuine question" if you mean "I think you're a racist fucker despite everything you've written, so I'll phrase this politely in a disingenuous way."

Quite apart from it being annoying that you made assumptions about me, it means we're going to have to star saying "genuine question - no, really, I don't know, and this an actual question."

 

[lengualo]

I think talking about 'documented' or 'undocumented' (les sans-papiers, as the French would say) is a better way to say it than 'legal' or 'illegal'. A bit like with refugees/asylum seekers, we don't have to accept the terms preferred by the state.

I thought the preferred term was irregular?

But, I understand and agree with "people cannot be illegal", and sometimes slip back to "illegal immigration" because the term is burned in.

 

[Gramsci]

That’s pretty textbook petite bourgeoisie. Vulnerable to be crowded out by big capital (while also reliant on big capital) on the one hand, but subject to the politics of self-interest rather than solidarity on the other.

Perhaps this is for another thread.

What's textbook isn't necessarily the same as how one finds it in everyday life

 

[Dystopiary]

It's really fucking obvious that that is not what I meant at all.

Please do not say "genuine question" if you mean "I think you're a racist fucker despite everything you've written, so I'll phrase this politely in a disingenuous way."

Quite apart from it being annoying that you made assumptions about me, it means we're going to have to star saying "genuine question - no, really, I don't know, and this an actual question."

I wrote "genuine question" because I wanted to be clear I wasn't being disingenuous. I didn't mean "I think you're a racist fucker".

I know I word things rather clunkily sometimes. I'm doing my best to be understood and to understand clearly.

I made no assumptions about you. I've read previous posts of yours that make me think it extremely unlikely that you're racist.

I don't understand your last bit; I don't think anybody has to start saying anything just because I did.

 

[scifisam]

I think talking about 'documented' or 'undocumented' (les sans-papiers, as the French would say) is a better way to say it than 'legal' or 'illegal'. A bit like with refugees/asylum seekers, we don't have to accept the terms preferred by the state.

When it comes to the current laws driving illegal immigration, I meant people overstaying visas, fake marriages, jobs and courses, a lot of which is driven by desperation and doesn't need to be illegal, it's the too-tight regulations that make it so. Not that you could tighten up the rules on study visas any more than the govt already has, so tight it's strangling HE.

I absolutely did NOT mean people risking their lives on small boats, people who are trafficked to the UK, or other asylum seekers. Some right-wing rhetoric considers them illegal but most of the time even the govt doesn't.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

When it comes to the current laws driving illegal immigration, I meant people overstaying visas, fake marriages, jobs and courses, a lot of which is driven by desperation and doesn't need to be illegal, it's the too-tight regulations that make it so. Not that you could tighten up the rules on study visas any more than the govt already has, so tight it's strangling HE.

I absolutely did NOT mean people risking their lives on small boats, people who are trafficked to the UK, or other asylum seekers. Some right-wing rhetoric considers them illegal but most of the time even the govt doesn't.

Ok. I wasn't intending to have a go. Apologies if it came across that way.

 

[scifisam]

Ok. I wasn't intending to have a go. Apologies if it came across that way.

No, you didn't. Apologies if it seemed like I was annoyed at you - I should have separated my posts out, or multiquoted.

Dystropiary, it's fine, none of us are perfect in our phrasing. It's just that if you think someone is probably not saying that asylum seekers are illegal, maybe it'd be helpful to say that when asking your question. Otherwise it's a heavily loaded question, not a genuine one. Being associated with people who shout "stop the boats" is unpleasant, hence me being a bit annoyed.

I genuinely don't know what sole traders Redquirrel would exempt. I genuinely don't, and they might have an answer that makes sense. It's so hard to ask a genuine question online, with the lack of nuance available and the number of people JAQing off, that we have to add "genuine question." If you're assuming the answer then it's not a genuine question.

 

[quimcunx]

I known the arguments for why people want to come to the UK, but I do struggle to understand why people take this amount of risk to get to this fucking shithole. Guess it is just because I'm already here.

Maybe they also believe the lies in the Daily Mail.

 

[scifisam]

It is a derail so I'll leave it after this but I don't see anyone dismissing people as "not worthy enough".
But if you own a small brewery, then yes you do have a different relationship to the means of production to someone who is an employee.

EDIT: scifisam rather than derail this thread further I'll simply link to this post which I think deals with your questions Why do people from privileged class backgrounds often misidentify their origins as working class?

Thanks. Posting a link to a very long thread very much does not deal with my question about why you, personally, think some low-paid sole traders are petit-bourgeois and others aren't (I genuinely do not know), but meh, it's not like you're obligated to answer it.

 

[Spymaster]

Pages of discussion about what the petit bourgeois actually are, on a thread about immigration concerns; mostly avoiding the poster who posted about immigration concerns.

And lefties wonder why normal people think they're a bunch of wankers!

 

[cesare]

Pages of discussion about what the petit bourgeois actually are, on a thread about immigration concerns; mostly avoiding the poster who posted about immigration concerns.

And lefties wonder why normal people think they're a bunch of wankers!

You are very good at cutting through crap tbf. I've been sitting here getting quite bloody annoyed at the thread being taken over by Marxists.and.or Marxist sympathisers that are still relying on what Marx said back in the days of the industrial revolution when it was all about factories. Bloody hell.

 

[kabbes]

But I don’t think any of that is the most important thing to be discussing in a thread about immigration. Not irrelevant, but not central either.

My first sentence there made me not want to continue further on the topic of class relations. But the last few posts are teasing me to expand on the “not irrelevant” part…

 

[cesare]

My first sentence there made me not want to continue further on the topic of class relations. But the last few posts are teasing me to expand on the “not irrelevant” part…

You should definitely hold.forth.

 

[scifisam]

Pages of discussion about what the petit bourgeois actually are, on a thread about immigration concerns, mostly avoiding the poster who posted about immigration concerns.

And lefties wonder why normal people think they're a bunch of wankers!

Hold my hands up to being part of it.

I don't think I realised what section this is in - I usually have the whole politics sub-forum on ignore due to things like low-wage cleaners or market traders possibly being petit bourgeois if they're a sole trader. I don't think anyone could persuade me or most people I know in real life that applying the word "bourgeois" to people in those jobs has any meaning outside of political circles - and no, it doesn't matter if you add the word petit.

Especially when it came up due to someone talking about how to engage with ordinary people.

Will back off and leave it to the people who like talking about it.

 

[cesare]

Hold my hands up to being part of it.

I don't think I realised what section this is in - I usually have the whole politics sub-forum on ignore due to things like low-wage cleaners or market traders possibly being petit bourgeois if they're a sole trader. I don't think anyone could persuade me or most people I know in real life that applying the word "bourgeois" to people in those jobs has any meaning outside of political circles - and no, it doesn't matter if you add the word petit.

Especially when it came up due to someone talking about how to engage with ordinary people.

Will back off and leave it to the people who like talking about it.

I'd be very sad if you backed off. Your posts are much more about real.life than some of the theoretical input in the past couple of pages. You sound as pissed off as me, perhaps? Don't go.

 

[Spymaster]

Hold my hands up to being part of it.

I don't think I realised what section this is in - I usually have the whole politics sub-forum on ignore due to things like low-wage cleaners or market traders possibly being petit bourgeois if they're a sole trader. I don't think anyone could persuade me or most people I know in real life that applying the word "bourgeois" to people in those jobs has any meaning outside of political circles - and no, it doesn't matter if you add the word petit.

Especially when it came up due to someone talking about how to engage with ordinary people.

Will back off and leave it to the people who like talking about it.

Yours and Kabbes' have been the only posts worth reading today.

 

[krtek a houby]

Hold my hands up to being part of it.

I don't think I realised what section this is in - I usually have the whole politics sub-forum on ignore due to things like low-wage cleaners or market traders possibly being petit bourgeois if they're a sole trader. I don't think anyone could persuade me or most people I know in real life that applying the word "bourgeois" to people in those jobs has any meaning outside of political circles - and no, it doesn't matter if you add the word petit.

Especially when it came up due to someone talking about how to engage with ordinary people.

Will back off and leave it to the people who like talking about it.

There certainly was a brief moment when I was wondering if Joan and Bill who run the greasy spoon or Mr Patel who runs the newsagent, or the family run Chinese takeaway were, in fact, the real enemy... rather than the fash involved in the pogroms.

In the meantime, as long as the othering of newcomers and people who look/sound "different" remains, as long as toxic politicians engage in the populist bigoted practice of scapegoating and demonising... the racism will be mainstreamed.

(Don't think we'll ever move back to either the UK or Ireland in the current climate. Not that it doesn't happen here. Just in a more subtle fashion - "foreign" run small/family businesses being review bombed, malicious phone calls made to said establishments etc.)

 

[cesare]

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