Immigration to the UK - do you have concerns?

[teqniq]

I do think the language matters. 'Asylum seekers welcome here' doesn't have the same ring to it as 'refugees welcome here'. The former means you're welcome to try your luck with the legal system. The latter just means you're welcome. Someone will typically wait two-three years for a decision on their legal status, and if they're successful, do they then become refugees at that point or is their status backdated to the time they arrived? Thay have in fact always been refugees since the day of their arrival - it just took the UK state a long time to recognise this. No need for us to be so tardy.

I agree with what you say, howerver language is important for other reasons. They are given status from the date of the Home Office decision also please see my edited post #685

 

[krtek a houby]

I think the riots were partly motivated by envy. Unlike Muslims, white sub-proletariat English people lack cultural organisations, fraternities and organised support networks. Their sense identity is a mess. They do not practice clean living. Christianity is not seen as able to fill the void. Deindustrialisation happened, Thatcher happened, 9/11 and all its consequences happened, mass immigration has happened, especially since 2004, and has increased every year. People at the bottom (ok, near the bottom) lashed out.

Me personally, I'm expecting my first kid, and the only suitable accommodation we could find was a flatshare with a Ukrainian fugitive whose been in the country for years but has never worked and can't speak English. Let's face it, we are living in scarcity. Yeah I have concerns. The cultural differences and lived experiences are a vast chasm between us.

We are all human and our similarities outweigh our differences.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I agree with what you say, howerver language is important for other reasons. They are given status from the date of the Home Office decision also please see my edited post

Sure, but on top of that, I don't just wait for the Home Office to tell me who is or isn't a refugee. For example, the refugees from Kurdistan who lived next to me in the 2000s - I really don't care what their legal status was, they had fled a warzone and I'm going to call them refugees.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

We are all human and our similarities outweigh our differences.

I feel precious little kinship with the hateful fascists who rioted last month, tbh.

 

[krtek a houby]

I feel precious little kinship with the hateful fascists who rioted last month, tbh.

Fair point. It's almost like they have rejected their own basic humanity.

 

[Pickman's model]

Maybe so. I'm not that interested in psychoanalysing fascists tbh. The hatred is the driver of the action. That's the bit we can plainly see.

No one is psychoanalysing fascists

 

[krtek a houby]

No one is psychoanalysing fascists

It might be helpful to understand what motivates (beyond the obvious hatreds) individuals to do what they do/did ...

 

[Pickman's model]

It might be helpful to understand what motivates (beyond the obvious hatreds) individuals to do what they do/did ...

I don't think that exploration of motives necessarily involves psychoanalysis

 

[Ĝasper]

We are all human and our similarities outweigh our differences.

I would love to be able to say refugees welcome. But the truth is that i am not welcome in my home, because a refugee who was in the flat first wants it as his home only.

This is not some sort of allegory or metaphor. Its my day to day life.

I will probably be told to direct anger instead towards Putin and the UK establishment. As if I'm not doing that already. It's just that i don't bump into them everyday in the shithole i call home.

 

[krtek a houby]

I don't think that exploration of motives necessarily involves psychoanalysis

No, but it might lead to a better understanding.

Emphasis on "might", of course.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

I think the riots were partly motivated by envy. Unlike Muslims, white sub-proletariat English people lack cultural organisations, fraternities and organised support networks. Their sense identity is a mess. They do not practice clean living.

Could you explain this please? What do you mean about them ("white sub-proletariat English people" not practicing clean living)?

 

[Ĝasper]

Could you explain this please? What do you mean about them ("white sub-proletariat English people" not practicing clean living)?

I have the impression that substance abuse (including tobacco, alcohol, and fast food, as well as illegal drugs) is less of a problem among Muslims.

 

[PTK]

It's not a numbers issue though is it. It's not like we had riots because of the release of some numbers. It was a response to a particular event - a triple murder. The trigger has been fear. Yes, it was misdirected but countering something as visceral as fear with some numbers about migrants isn't really going to help IMHO.

We see this amped up on social media. The rape gangs in Rotherham - Elon Musk asking "Kier Starmer is this still happening" for example. Britain First seem to be all over the fear angle. It's easy to dismiss these but this stuff seems to be surfaced for people who aren't even following them. I'm sure someone will be along to say "well my Twitter feed doesn't have them", but who gives a shit. It's happening.

I still believe that leaving social media, particularly Twitter, is necessary. By sticking around on Twitter, no matter how anodyne your feed is sends the message to your contacts that it's still ok to be there. But you don't know what they're seeing, what they're being promoted. If all the good people leave it can finally collapse into a toxic hellscape. If Twitter doesn't fail then we'll see the other social media companies roll back Trust and Safety teams too and exacerbate the issue. In a way, Twitter has to fail and be seen to fail.

Of course, another idea would be to flood back and argue the toss there. However, with Musk as owner I cannot see a path to success - he'll make sure his message is amped up and other social media companies may see this as a success and take the same steps he has. Again, rolling back Trust and Safety and inviting back all the facists.

As regards X/Twitter.

Newspapers and magazines rely on advertising. The reason that people read them is because of the articles. People are paid to write the articles without which the advertisers would have no audience, and the publications would not exist.

X/Twitter is an advertising platform. People who post on X/Twitter are acting as unpaid content providers. Without the content, there would be no audience for the advertisers, and X would go bust.

Posting on X enables Musk to continue to run X, which is a platform for his own racist/Islamophobic/xenophobic propaganda and incitement, and that of others.

It is true that anti-racist activists have been able to use X to facilitate protests, but it is unnecessary. We had no “social” media in the 1970s, but we still had protests. We had such things as telephone trees. Today there is email, and there are text messages, and there are websites.

If we would not publish an article in a magazine that ran editorials that incited racist violence, then we should not post on X.

Even maintaining an account on X enables Musk.

 

[PTK]

I feel precious little kinship with the hateful fascists who rioted last month, tbh.

"We are all human and our similarities outweigh our differences"
I said as I was knocked to the floor and kicked in the head when I was walking home one night.

 

[danny la rouge]

I have the impression that substance abuse (including tobacco, alcohol, and fast food, as well as illegal drugs) is less of a problem among Muslims.

How did you form that impression?

 

[emanymton]

I have the impression that substance abuse (including tobacco, alcohol, and fast food, as well as illegal drugs) is less of a problem among Muslims.

I think the only one you are right about is Alcohol.

 

[maomao]

I think the riots were partly motivated by envy. Unlike Muslims, white sub-proletariat English people lack cultural organisations, fraternities and organised support networks. Their sense identity is a mess. They do not practice clean living. Christianity is not seen as able to fill the void. Deindustrialisation happened, Thatcher happened, 9/11 and all its consequences happened, mass immigration has happened, especially since 2004, and has increased every year. People at the bottom (ok, near the bottom) lashed out.

Me personally, I'm expecting my first kid, and the only suitable accommodation we could find was a flatshare with a Ukrainian fugitive whose been in the country for years but has never worked and can't speak English. Let's face it, we are living in scarcity. Yeah I have concerns. The cultural differences and lived experiences are a vast chasm between us.

That must be unpleasant for you with a baby on the way (referencing your next post too here) but the problem is the government's management of the housing market. It's utterly shameful that a young couple with a kid on the way can't have a flat to themselves but there are quarter of a million empty properties in this country; capitalism, the landlord class and the government's management of social housing are the problems, not scarcity.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Yes. And a further caveat from me that I prefer to call them refugees.

Just like many of the ‘legitimate concerns’ are not legitimate, many of those claiming to be refugees are not refugees, they are economic migrants.

Pretending otherwise obscures the necessary honest conversation about the treatment of refugees and the lack of safe routes and how economic migrants seeking asylum can be identified and processed.

 

[emanymton]

It might be helpful to understand what motivates (beyond the obvious hatreds) individuals to do what they do/did ...

I'm probably getting old, grumpy and right wing, but I am increasingly coming around to the idea that some people are just cunts.

 

[Cat Fan]

The UK is a country entirely populated by immigrants if you go back far enough in time. Historically speaking mass migration events are quite common.

Modern systems and controls can reduce flows of people but there's ultimately no stopping long term trends caused by demographics and climate, so we should all just get on with our lives and stop worrying.

What we're seeing now is nothing compared to the mass migration that toppled the Western Roman empire.

The UK has comparatively far fewer migrants coming over than southern or eastern European countries because of our geographical location.

So everyone should have a cup of tea and chill.

 

[Elohim]

I keep hearing that there are concerns about immigration. I've heard concerns about immigration used as a justification for some really toxic and even violent language and behaviour over the years, but the last few weeks have seen a kind of paroxysm of pent-up rage in the UK that has got even the left-lib bubble of Urban75 arguing about immigration. Here's a thread for that, if it's needed.

I'll start; immigration is bad because it's used by wealth owners to undercut potential wage / conditions demands by their native workforce. This is more or less where my sympathy with anti-immigrantism ends - and even within this idea, it's still not the immigrants' fault. Attacking them and making them feel less welcome, is misguided and unnecessary and cruel. Full stop.

So what other concerns can we come up with? I've heard about white replacement, cultural cohesion, pride in traditions, defending the realm, exploitation of our social systems (NHS etc), "we're full", the unavailability of social housing, dentists and GPs, the state of our schools, hospitals, town centres, rates of joblessness and social disengagement - all this and more has been raised under the banner of The Problem With Immigration Is...

So where are we? What (if any) concerns about immigration could justify street violence such as we've been seeing recently? And what, if anything, should be done (by the state or by us as individuals and communities) to address these concerns?

Immigration always have pros and cons but we have people like Israel funded Tommy Robinson stoking the fires of hatred and causing division.
Pushing us and them and scapegoating the whole muslim community for his racist agenda.

We also have Nick Lowes stoking the fires of hatred and spreading fake news with gangs of EDL throwing acid in to muslim women's faces. Even when the news was clearly found out to be fake Nick Lowes still left the tweet up. In order to whip up social unrest.

 

[Ĝasper]

That must be unpleasant for you with a baby on the way (referencing your next post too here) but the problem is the government's management of the housing market. It's utterly shameful that a young couple with a kid on the way can't have a flat to themselves

Thanks maomao for a bit of empathy. Yours was the only response to me which acknowledged my family's concerning* circumstances. *See the thread title.

The other replies just wanted to nitpick something quite trivial I'd said, and discuss which ethnic group would win a drinking contest. Perhaps out of an eagerness to tell me I'm wrong?l, or even call me a fascist? No offence - I've always liked the overall vibe of the forum - but is this thread not just a massive echo chamber?

 

[RevolutionSound]

I have the impression that substance abuse (including tobacco, alcohol, and fast food, as well as illegal drugs) is less of a problem among Muslims.

It's a huge problem among Muslims. Maybe even more so, as it is even more culturally taboo than "white" culture.

 

[Ĝasper]

there are quarter of a million empty properties in this country; capitalism, the landlord class and the government's management of social housing are the problems, not scarcity.

I don't disagree with this end bit by the way. Except there is scarcity, when you check whats actually available without revolution (when's that happening again?).

So often we hear the slogan "punch up, not down". But look around and it seems nobody is actually punching up, but are in fact cheering on the police and the state and the prison system. Humza Yusuf even wanted the army called in.

A few weeks ago the government announced that the prisons were all full. But now people are getting jailed for Facebook posts etc.

 

[krtek a houby]

"We are all human and our similarities outweigh our differences"
I said as I was knocked to the floor and kicked in the head when I was walking home one night.

Sorry to hear that. Been there.

 

[maomao]

I don't disagree with this end bit by the way. Except there is scarcity, when you check whats actually available without revolution (when's that happening again?).

So often we hear the slogan "punch up, not down". But look around and it seems nobody is actually punching up, but are in fact cheering on the police and the state and the prison system. Humza Yusuf even wanted the army called in.

A few weeks ago the government announced that the prisons were all full. But now people are getting jailed for Facebook posts etc.

Slagging off immigrants on Facebook and lobbing bricks at coppers isn't improving anyone's housing situation either though. It is destroying class solidarity and helping the government ignore the real problem. Tbh I feel similarly about people cheering big sentences for protestors/rioters. Some of them, like the ones who tried to torch a hotel and the utter scum who were pulling foreigners out of their cars in Hull do need locking up but a couple of years for shouting and argy-bargy with the cops is not something to be applauded.

 

[redsquirrel]

I have the impression that substance abuse (including tobacco, alcohol, and fast food, as well as illegal drugs) is less of a problem among Muslims.

And what does "sub-proletarian" mean? IYV

 

[LakieLady]

What was the feeling of most British people in the 1800's and early 1900's about the empire? Genuine question as it's made me wonder if it's something people look back on now it's gone and try to feel proud about, but in the moment it may have felt different to many people. Was there resentment for fighting in wars that seem far away and inconsequential for your family at home?

I've no idea, tbh. I suspect that having an empire was generally considered a Good Thing, that we were in some way entitled to it, what with Britain being so damn wonderful and all, and that rather than resentment at "fighting wars far away", those doing so felt that they were protecting what was "ours". The notion that colonialism was a Bad Thing came much later, imo.

In the 1800s there were probably still plenty of people alive who thought the settlers and their descendants were bloody ungrateful for chucking the British out, and that they only managed it because they had the help of the French and Spanish, who wanted revenge for Britain beating them in other wars.

ETA: It might be enlightening to read 19th century/early 20C literature to see what people felt about it. In Austen and Hardy (which won't be representative, but are pretty much all I've read from that period), overseas territories seemed to only be mentioned in passing as where people went to make their fortunes or because they were in some sort of disgrace. Kipling might be a good place to start.

 

[Dystopiary]

Slagging off immigrants on Facebook and lobbing bricks at coppers isn't improving anyone's housing situation either though. It is destroying class solidarity and helping the government ignore the real problem though. Tbh I feel similarly about people cheering big sentences for protestors/rioters. Some of them, like the ones who tried to torch a hotel and the utter scum who were pulling foreigners out of their cars in Hull do need locking up but a couple of years for shouting and argy-bargy with the cops is not something to be applauded.

I've been thinking quite a bit about this woman who just sounds vulnerable, for want of a better word (probably would've been "troubled" in the past):

Watch woman jailed for violent disorder fall flat on face pushing wheelie bin at cops

(Not to be confused with the racist removals woman in Sunderland, who also pushed bins at coppers.)

It doesn't look like she's racist, just has a drink problem and has had a bad hand in life. Don't see how giving her a custodial will help her or anyone else. But "justice" has to be seen to be done and we live in a world where that's more important than preventing poverty and supporting people with substance abuse issues.

 

[PTK]

.